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Old 14-04-2015, 03:14   #166
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

oh yeah - did I mention - keep out of the other blokes way...
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Old 14-04-2015, 03:29   #167
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
hang on... thats not how it works on CF!!!

The film is funny.
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Old 14-04-2015, 03:33   #168
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Originally Posted by charliehows View Post
forgive me if I'm yawning but this long, boring discussion over the miniscule semantic veracities of 'colregs' leaves me a little bemused. I've sailed for 50ish years never having heard of 'colregs' til i read it in this forum, I've got a rough idea you keep the other bloke to your left when approaching; commercial shipping, which is pretty much anything big or ugly, has 'right of way' - let me state that again, 'right of way' - which is not a legal term dating back to the magna bloody carta, it's a nice simple practical way of saying keep out of the other blokes way; and, finally, if in doubt, keep out of the other blokes way, he could be some a#%*hole whos read 3000 pages of colregs and still doesnt know what hes doing but hes damned sure hes got 'right of way' and means to run you down to prove it...
I'm surprised you read the thread. that's dedication.

If you feel so inclined to read them one day, far from 3000 pages there about 70.
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Old 14-04-2015, 03:58   #169
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

See Colregs Rule 17 - Action by stand on vessel!

(a) (ii) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course
and speed.
(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre
alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep
out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself
so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone,
she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with
subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel
shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on
her own port side.
(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.
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Old 14-04-2015, 05:31   #170
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Originally Posted by charliehows View Post


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I've sailed for 50ish years never having heard of 'colregs' ..., commercial shipping, has 'right of way' - let me state that again, 'right of way' -

On Sydney Harbour theres some local harbour rules for that harbour alone. Ferrys displaying a black diamond dayshape are given right of way.


Outside Sydney Harbour the world still works normally.
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Old 14-04-2015, 06:08   #171
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Inland rules apply anywhere landward of the colregs demarcation lines which are clearly marked on all US coastal charts. International rules apply seaward of these demarcation lines. I'm not sure what you mean by Inland waterways, but there are very few US coastal bays inlets or harbors where international rules apply. Most of the rules are the same, but there are a few differences. Each country gets to determine their own inland rules. Some simply adopt the international rules, some may not. For instance International rules no longer require a bell for boats greater than 12 meters and less than 20, but US inland rules still do. Furthermore individual US states have their own rules which can be different as well, so being in compliance can vary within individual US states.

All of this is so much fun. So with regards to this thread what rules was the sailboat governed by at the time of the collision? Was he under international rules or in fact in Thai internal waters where some local rules unbeknownst to me were in effect? I see a lot of people speculating based on international rules, but I don't see anyone that has stated that they know what rules he was operating under. Does Thailand adopt international rules for its internal waters or do they have their own local rules?
I believe your conception of what are internal waters is abusive regarding coastal bays.

Here you have the definitions were both rules apply regarding US:

Colregs (International):

"These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels."

Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbors, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules."

Coastal bays are ruled by Colregs by inland waterways I mean, in this case, what the US government calls inland waterways.

Inland regs:

"These rules apply to all vessels upon the inland waters of the United States, and to vessels of the United States on the Canadian waters of the Great Lakes to the extent that there is no conflict with Canadian law. ..."

Navigation Rules Online

The collision happened on open sea so I have no doubt International law (Colregs) apply.
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Old 14-04-2015, 06:25   #172
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I believe your conception of what are internal waters is abusive regarding coastal bays.

Here you have the definitions were both rules apply regarding US:

Colregs (International):

"These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels."

Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbors, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules."

Coastal bays are ruled by Colregs by inland waterways I mean, in this case, what the US government calls inland waterways.

Inland regs:

"These rules apply to all vessels upon the inland waters of the United States, and to vessels of the United States on the Canadian waters of the Great Lakes to the extent that there is no conflict with Canadian law. ..."

Navigation Rules Online

The collision happened on open sea so I have no doubt International law (Colregs) apply.
GENERAL
§ 33 CFR 80.01 General basis and purpose of demarcation lines.
(a) The regulations in this part establish the lines of demarcation delineating those waters upon
which mariners shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at
Sea, 1972 (72 COLREGS) and those waters upon which mariners shall comply with the
Inland Navigation Rules.
(b) The waters inside of the lines are Inland Rules Waters. The waters outside the lines are
COLREGS Waters.

Also see page 147 of the current version of the USCG Navigation rules. It helps to read the entire book. No abuse intended.
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Old 14-04-2015, 07:18   #173
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

You guys can argue for days about right of way vs stand-on, and it isn't going to do a bit of good in places like Thailand. On of my friends was driving in Ao Chalong and was rear-ended by (only) two Thai girls on a motorbike. He was required to buy them a new motorbike, because as a farang, 'if he hadn't been there the accident wouldn't have happened'. Don't expect anything under 50,000 tons in Thailand to be driven in accordance with your precious colregs! My rules there were pretty simple, but they worked. 1. On a motorbike, ride the hip of a bus or truck and no one will pull out in front of you. 2 Watch out for oncoming motorbikes with their turn signal on--it signifies that they are riding against traffic in your lane. 3. On a boat, get out of their way (if you and they can figure out where they are going) and never insist on standing on.
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Old 14-04-2015, 07:33   #174
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Some Class "A"sets do have this function, Dan, but I have never met a commercial mariner who admits to ever having used it.

It would be reckless in the extreme to intentionally shut off warnings of potential collisions, and I don't know of any professional who would ever do such a thing.

But Polux's larger point -- that you shouldn't assume that anyone sees you -- is correct, and with or without AIS is the way you are supposed behave, anyway.

If you are stand-on, you only do it for a relatively brief period, and all the while you are analyzing the encounter to see whether the potential collision has been unwound, or not, and if you are not completely sure that you have a safe CPA, then you start maneuvering yourself. You really should rarely even care very much, whether the other guy sees you or not.

You are never allowed to think to yourself "Oh, I have the right of way, so I'm just going to sail on and let others get out of my way." Which kind of gets back to the original topic.
Both yourself and Transmitterdan say you have not met a professional mariner who admits to this. In fact I had a prolonged dinner discussion with a Bulker deck officer of 20 years standing around 3 weeks ago on this very subject. I had just finished describing how, in Indonesian waters, AIS can be misleading as: 1. very many commercial vessels, particularly of the tug and barge (often huge) variety do not use AIS at all and 2. those that do often have it incorrectly set up such that the ship's heading is way off its actual course. I have been the subject of one panicked warning based upon erroneous AIS like this off East Nusa Tengarra. Anyhow, he went on to say how this is a worldwide problem (not as I have witnessed so much as in Indonesia) and that in very densely trafficked situations deck officers often ignore AIS in favour of radar. I know, I found his statements odd, troubling, and not really very clear. But he did indeed make them. As it happens, I am slightly acquainted with the individual who is the skipper of "Starship". It may surprise you (or not) to learn that he is an ex commercial seaman of long standing. It may also surprise you (or not) to learn that several such ex deck officer turned sailors are among the worst keepers of the colregs I have ever known.

On other notes: passive AIS is stupendously useful in many respects; stand on vessels in no way have "rights of anything". Thanks to all for your staunch and thoroughly well argued defense of the only correct interpretation of the colregs! That notwithstanding, the fact is that in SE Asian waters the Colregs are for the most part with regard to third parties as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Still, as in Dockhead's superb analyses, correct observation of the first parties' obligations thereunder will be generally be met with success, and no collisions!
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Old 14-04-2015, 07:44   #175
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

I am aware that Indonesian commercial vessels run without AIS. That is not the problem we were discussing. We were discussing ships with AIS "ignoring" class B AIS messages.

I have a friend that was nearly run down by an Indonesian freighter and no AIS signal was ever heard from it. This is a huge problem and there is little we can do except complain to the Indonesian authorities. I have asked if the U.S. Government could put some pressure on them but that went no where fast as you could imagine.
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Old 14-04-2015, 07:46   #176
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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I am aware that Indonesian commercial vessels run without AIS. That is not the problem we were discussing. We were discussing ships with AIS "ignoring" class B AIS messages.

I have a friend that was nearly run down by an Indonesian freighter and no AIS signal was ever heard from it. This is a huge problem and there is little we can do except complain to the Indonesian authorities. I have asked if the U.S. Government could put some pressure on them but that went no where fast as you could imagine.
Oh yes, I understood that. My comments re: Indonesian waters were just a by the by. The main course was that this particular deck officer quite readily admitted to ignoring such signals completely.
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Old 14-04-2015, 08:00   #177
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Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

I had that experience a couple of weeks ago with the ships heading being 15degrees from it's cog. I was wondering why, I didn't realise the AIS transmits the heading and assumed it was calculated by the cog. The particular instance was showing the ship passing .5M to starboard, but his heading indicated he would pass to port. I thought about it, considered leeway or running on one engine but it couldn't have been 15 degrees difference. I ended up hailing him and confirming a starboard to starboard pass and be did pass a little over .5M to starboard. Interesting that heading is transmitted and sometimes incorrectly setup, and definitely something to be aware of in the future!
Btw, opencpn correctly displayed the passing details. I'm not sure if my Raymarine plotter showed the vector correctly but I think it did so I assume they both calculate on cog which makes sense.
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Old 14-04-2015, 08:31   #178
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

Class A AIS should transmit a vessels compass heading (gyro), if the various systems have been integrated correctly. If the gyro has an heading error, then the AIS will transmit the incorrect heading.

Regarding ignoring of Class B AIS transmissions.
The type's of Class A transponders that I have used, there is no filter to remove Class B targets. The filtering is done on either the ECDIS or a radar which is integrated with the AIS, where there is usually a Class B filter option.

However, on all the equipment I have used, if a Class B target falls within the CPA and TCPA limits set on the ECDIS and or radar, then that Class B target will be displayed. If the CPA/TCPA limits are not used, then the Class B target will not be displayed.

I remember Evans reporting on a Furuno system which would ignore Class B no matter what it's CPA/TCPA was, but it would be a foolish operator who would use this option.

Despite the above, AIS is not (or should not be ) used by non recreational craft as a means of determining if a collision exists, or as a means of determining an action to take if a close quarters situation is developing. Compass bearings and radar/ARPA are the primary tools for that. AIS is only really useful in determining ID of other vessels.
However, as most recreational craft do not have sophisticated radars and ARPA, AIS would in this context be a useful tool in high density traffic areas.l
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Old 14-04-2015, 08:55   #179
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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Thanks to all for your staunch and thoroughly well argued defense of the only correct interpretation of the colregs! That notwithstanding, the fact is that in SE Asian waters the Colregs are for the most part with regard to third parties as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
That isn't just a SE Asian problem. Try English Bay in Vancouver on a nice day but be careful.
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Old 14-04-2015, 08:58   #180
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Re: Phuket! I have "Right of Way"

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AIS is only really useful in determining ID of other vessels.
However, as most recreational craft do not have sophisticated radars and ARPA, AIS would in this context be a useful tool in high density traffic areas.l
Nigel I've found my AIS to be a godsend when sailing down Øresund at night. Determining aspect and distance on a set of lights using only your eyeball is difficult to say the least - especially as they can easily get confused with the lights on shore.

Now I can simply move my cursor on the target and get both a CPA and a TCPA, my AIS also shows long arrows from those ships that will pass inside my preset guard zone. The length of the arrow indicating speed.

Believe me - I feel a lot safer with the AIS
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