Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-04-2013, 01:55   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 24
owner permission....

Hello everybody !

First i would like to present myself, as i am knew to Cruisers forum. I am 52, i am Belgian but live in south of France. I sail a 51' catamaran wich is in Turkey. I plan to go cruising round the world for the next 5 years. Also, i apologise for my poor english...

Need advise/experience about this :
I bought the catamaran in France and exported it to Turkey to avoid paying VAT. Then i opened a delaware company and registered the boat there via an agent who closed his company and run away, leaving me with unpaid taxes and no more contact over there.

I decided to open new LLc in delaware, and re register my boat from old to knew LLc. Hope it is clear..But my new agent told me that he could not deal with skipper/owner permission to sail the boat.

So, does someone got experience on how to arrange operating agreement of the LLc to provide with these permissions ? I read a post from David Old Jersey who says :

''Possibly where some folks have come unstuck is where the (different country) boat reg is held via a company - and the Skipper (and "owner") simply forget that they actually need permission (from the company) to use and possess the boat (even though it really is their own).....and for that some countries can require a bit more paperwork to prove things than in others (most will take a simple letter of authorisation signed by a company Director, others might want proof that the Director is a Director and can authorise)''

With my old LLc, i got a director in, who signed this kind of permission. But now, i am the sole in the new company. (as manager) But i am not going to sign a permission for me ! i would like to avoid hiring a director and things like that...

So i would be very pleased to hear about people being in this case...i do not want that each clearin turn into nightmare.


thanks your help !

eric
__________________

__________________
Catastroff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 03:20   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,586
Images: 240
Re: owner permission....

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Eric.

See ➥ Permission to sail letter
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 06:20   #3
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,953
Images: 6
Re: owner permission....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catastroff View Post
But now, i am the sole in the new company. (as manager) But i am not going to sign a permission for me !
Why not? This sort of thing is done pretty routinely. For example, my wife and I have a trust. When we make large purchases that we want to go through the trust, sometimes we sign documents that say that we, as the owners of the trust, give ourselves permission to act on behalf of the trust.

Of course, the most important thing to remember is that internet legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it--NOTHING! Seek the counsel of a competent attorney.
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 06:34   #4
Registered User
 
lorenzo b's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Panama
Boat: Steel trawler 63' Eileen Farrell
Posts: 961
Re: owner permission....

The advise you need is not available on this net. If you want to avoid taxes and limit your liability to protect your assets, you may want to spend a few thousand Euros on competent help.
When you check into a foreign country, they want to know who you are clearly stated on your papers and that you can be held responsible for your actions. Most boaters have their taxes handled by their accountants and their liability covered by insurance. The song and dance you are engaged in will only draw adverse attention to you.
__________________
lorenzo b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 07:06   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 24
Re: owner permission....

Thanks for your answers.

To Lorenzo,

Regarding taxes the fisrt owner bought the boat and registered it in latvia. So no VAT. When i bought i took the boat immediately out of EU waters and made exportations documents. The boat is in turkey waiting to cross to caribean. I also have a insurance contract on my name covering the boat/crew/and third parties. I did nothing illegal i think. So i dont see why i would get adverse attention...
__________________
Catastroff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 07:21   #6
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: owner permission....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catastroff View Post
Thanks for your answers.

To Lorenzo,

Regarding taxes the fisrt owner bought the boat and registered it in latvia. So no VAT. When i bought i took the boat immediately out of EU waters and made exportations documents. The boat is in turkey waiting to cross to caribean. I also have a insurance contract on my name covering the boat/crew/and third parties. I did nothing illegal i think. So i dont see why i would get adverse attention...
"Ahhh..!! Tis a tangled web we weave..
in our efforts to deceive..."

Boats in Turkey.. you set up a dodgey company in Delaware for tax avoidance () and its screwed up...
Like all things... a good KISS plan is worth 2 in the brush...
Register it in Gib.. or if you've an address in the UK you can use go SSR... all you get asked for is Boat Registration, ID and Insurance... no one has ever asked me for proof of VAT paid... anywhere...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 08:36   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 24
Re: owner permission....

Sorry i am not english native so i don't really understand what you say...
__________________
Catastroff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 08:40   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sailing the Caribbean
Boat: Switch 51
Posts: 1,498
It's not screwed up. Denverdon is right. As sole manager of a Del LLC you can certainly designate yourself as agent. To know if this works for your particular purpose, you need specific legal advice. And there is no shame in legal tax avoidance. Don't listen to the scolds here who were not smart enough to do it for themselves.
__________________
SVNeko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 08:53   #9
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: owner permission....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catastroff View Post
Sorry i am not english native so i don't really understand what you say...
Basically... I never understand why people need complex solutions to fairly easy to resolve problems..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 08:54   #10
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: owner permission....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catastroff View Post
Hello everybody !

First i would like to present myself, as i am knew to Cruisers forum. I am 52, i am Belgian but live in south of France. I sail a 51' catamaran wich is in Turkey. I plan to go cruising round the world for the next 5 years. Also, i apologise for my poor english...

Need advise/experience about this :
I bought the catamaran in France and exported it to Turkey to avoid paying VAT. Then i opened a delaware company and registered the boat there via an agent who closed his company and run away, leaving me with unpaid taxes and no more contact over there.

I decided to open new LLc in delaware, and re register my boat from old to knew LLc. Hope it is clear..But my new agent told me that he could not deal with skipper/owner permission to sail the boat.

So, does someone got experience on how to arrange operating agreement of the LLc to provide with these permissions ? I read a post from David Old Jersey who says :

''Possibly where some folks have come unstuck is where the (different country) boat reg is held via a company - and the Skipper (and "owner") simply forget that they actually need permission (from the company) to use and possess the boat (even though it really is their own).....and for that some countries can require a bit more paperwork to prove things than in others (most will take a simple letter of authorisation signed by a company Director, others might want proof that the Director is a Director and can authorise)''

With my old LLc, i got a director in, who signed this kind of permission. But now, i am the sole in the new company. (as manager) But i am not going to sign a permission for me ! i would like to avoid hiring a director and things like that...

So i would be very pleased to hear about people being in this case...i do not want that each clearin turn into nightmare.


thanks your help !

eric
I am not familiar with Delaware LLC's. Are you the only company officer / official in your role as "Manager"? (i.e. no one else (your "agent"?) is a Director or President or Secretary or Treasurer etc).

If that is the case and on the presumption that the Manager is authorised (the only person who is?) to act on behalf of the company to do everything and anything - then it is the Manager who signs on behalf of the LLC to give authority to use the boat. The fact that it appears that you are giving authority to yourself is irrelevant! (and that is not actually happening - the LLC is authorising someone else).

In the Letter of Authority just make it clear that you are giving the authority on behalf of the LLC (and not as yourself) - As said already, that is perfectly normal, just can look a bit odd! make the letter look proffesional but write it clearly so even a child could understand!, Officialdom likes to be spoonfed.

Am not a tax or legal advisor - but what you are doing well within the norm of what others have done in the past, including by myself as part of the "day job" (well, former!) - including in Turkey and passing through the EU / Worldwide.

My original comments were about the fact that sometimes you will need to prove (with documents as evidence):-

a) that the LLC exists (certificate of Incorpation and articles - or equivalent, plus details (the URL) of any online Company Registry is useful to point officialdom towards if they a bit slow with Mr Google .....IIRC though Delaware not got much online, if anything - one for you to check ).

b) that the person giving authority (to use / Captain the boat) is authorised by the LLC to do so. (Signed Minutes or other signed LLC document appointing that person in their formal capacity (ie as Manager or Director) - plus the articles (or equivalent that sets out the powers that the formal capacity has on behalf of a company (for a Director usually a long winded way of saying "everything" I presume Manager of an LLC the same, especially if that is the only officer - otherwise LLC can't actually do things!)).

c) that the LLC did decide to let you use the boat, and not simply an employee acting beyond his authority (signed minutes where the LLC formally recorded it's decision to let you use "their" boat - a little bit of duplication of item D) below, but nonetheless possible to be asked for it to substantiate that the Letter of Authority was validly issued).

You could have the originals of the above with you (if so I suggest you also scan them online so can later get at least copies if the originals get eaten etc!) - but if only copies onboard they should be at least Notarised (which says that they are true copies of the originals)...........and I would also suggest that as they will be used internationally that you splash out for an Apostille on each doc (Which says that the Notary is a valid Notary!) - that Apostille thing a little bit of goldplating (but yer get some more nice stamps - which Johnny Foreigner in officialdom always seems to like ), and in any event 99% of the time you won't need any of the above! (and can simply use D, E, and F below) - it's just that 1% of the time will be a royal PITA if you don't have them! (expensive / time consuming to obtain from halfway around the world) .....percentages may vary .

the above in addition to the usual:-

d) that the LLC has given it's authority to you (to have possession of / Captain the boat) (original Letter of Authority)

e) that you are the person to whom the authority has been given! (your original passport)

f) the boat is registered in the name of the LLC (original boat reg docs)

Hope that helps..........
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 09:19   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 24
Re: owner permission....

Sure it helps ! i thank you for taking the time to answer. And it is clear ! I think the best is to have a director, or like you say your agent to sign with you/and for you, and on behalf of the company.
I am going to try to check with gibraltar lawyer, i will keep you informed.
thanks again.

eric
__________________
Catastroff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 10:19   #12
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: owner permission....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catastroff View Post
Sure it helps ! i thank you for taking the time to answer. And it is clear ! I think the best is to have a director, or like you say your agent to sign with you/and for you, and on behalf of the company.
I am going to try to check with gibraltar lawyer, i will keep you informed.
thanks again.

eric
Not sure if those comments were to me - but what I was trying(!) to say was that you signing on behalf of the LLC (as Manager) giving authority to you (as yourself!) is perfectly ok (if the LLC docs say the Manager has that power), it just looks a bit odd!.....but it is as valid as if they were 2 different people.....and won't cause any problems in clearing the boat through borders. Whether the control of the company being so transparently you causes problems is a seperate matter (As you live in the EU it certainly wouldn't work to park her in the South of France!, but nor would a different person signing on behalf of the LLC either - that simple an approach longgg gone).

Whether the Agent can sign depends on what power he has to act on behalf of the LLC, my suspicion is that he is simply the Agent who looks after the Registered Office Address (at his office in Delaware), possibly organises an annual Govt filing and sends you a bill each year ..........but has no power to act for the LLC and does not want to (for all he really knows the LLC could be involved in growing poppies and the boat could be full of Heroin!, for what you are likely paying him getting involved by signing documents is just too risky).

One think I forgot with my previous post (you get what you pay for on the internet ) - lets call it item a1) in that list................was that you may be called upon to prove who owns the LLC (as part of those 1% events - albeit a near certainty sooner or later if the boat is parked in the EU and operated by you as an EU citizen and resident.....but I take you at your word that boat intended for elsewhere).....the proof will be some original (or notarised copy) LLC documents that name the person(s) who own the LLC as owner / 100% shareholder, some Company Registries also have that info publically online (albeit for a fee), but most do not, including Delware (IIRC).
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 15:46   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Me Houston boat Nanny Cay
Boat: Freydis 49' Cat
Posts: 164
Re: owner permission....

I think he has to have a US citizen as a director with a controlling interest otherwise it's not possible to obtain a USCG documentation.
If all he wants is Delaware state reg he can sign it himself. Personally I
don't think the state reg will fly in the med.
Regards
Paul
__________________
Steel sails is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 02:00   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 24
Re: owner permission....

Sorry, i was out of home last week. yes the comments where for you David old jersey !
i thank you all for your help.

eric
__________________

__________________
Catastroff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.