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Old 22-12-2007, 22:50   #31
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The key phrase to listen out for is "It's the OTHER STARBOARD, @@@####!" In that case, you turn and run fast, because sufficient room means the other end of the course.[g]
I think everyone should do "some" racing. I didn't think so until this year when I did some racing.

Sailing a boat is pretty easy.
Sailing a boat fast is a little harder.
Sailing a boat fast, where you want it to go is actually pretty hard - As noted by our "spread" of finishers in the J24 class. 15 minutes behind the winner in a windward leeward course is a bit humbling - but still a lot of fun - LOL.

Regarding right of way?

That's another thing racing does for you. You learn the rules, understand there is "interpretation" and then realize the importance of a tactician on the team with a huge voice and a shitty personality. Half the start and mark rounding is intimidation. Biggest ******* wins - LOL.

Cruising in a sailboat it's easy to shout at someone and "assert" your ROW. Whether they agree or not is another matter.
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Old 23-12-2007, 09:42   #32
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Dan-
One design racing certainly makes you wonder, how come that other boat is faster than this boat? Which pays off when you're cruising, and want to pick up the last mooring someplace for dinner ashore.<G>
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Old 23-12-2007, 11:55   #33
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Aloha Dan,
I learned most my rules of the road while racing. Then, this question of overtaking came up while I was doing some instruction with another instructor present. We were not arguing but discussing certain scenarios between ourselves. He was a Cal Maritime Academy grad like David. It became clear to me that there was a conflict between port/starboard and overtaking when were talking about COLREGS vs Racing Rules. That's really the reason I brought it up here so that we could all learn it via a discussion.
"Rule 13 (Overtaking) overrules Rule 12 when one of the sailboats is overtaking the other from more than 22.5 abaft the beam." is a quote from "The One-Minute Guide to the Nautical Rules of the Road" by Charlie Wing and is A United States Power Squarons Guide. Page 63.
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Old 23-12-2007, 13:00   #34
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We have lot's of channel traffic. I always make my evasive manuevers 60 degrees plus and in plenty of time.
So do we. I've never gotten a 5 blast from any shipping; my wife always gives it to me verbally whether we need to change course or not!

Steve B.
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Old 23-12-2007, 16:11   #35
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. It became clear to me that there was a conflict between port/starboard and overtaking when were talking about COLREGS vs Racing Rules. ,
JohnL
Hi John,

There is a difference between COLREGS and racing rules - not a conflict as COLREGS are the superior rule.

When you are racing you know the other boats in your division are going to the next mark, so you know their Course. As you know their course you do not need to alter course for safety; there is no doubt you have no intention to have a collision at sea. When there is no intention of colliding and a proper lookout etc is occurring then the COLREGS don't need to apply. This is why you can sail, as HelloSailor says: with a playing cards distance between the boats. If you touch you get protested but it will just be a touch, not a collision which is life threatening. i.e a protest under racing rules not a law case under COLREGS

So it just gets down to the intention of the COLREGS, racing rules, and the skippers.

Fortunately there was some sanity in this world when some Admiral who made up the COLREGS has said that racing rules are OK because its just big show-off boys and their toys trying to be tough!


Mark
Merry Christmas!
Ho Ho Ho!
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Old 23-12-2007, 16:57   #36
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Aloha Mark,
Just a matter of interpretation I guess. I do see them in conflict. COLREGS states one thing and the Racing Rules state another for overtaking. In a race, one goes by racing rules, when not you go by COLREGS. If all you know is racing rules then you could get yourself in trouble by not knowing that if you are an overtaking vessel you are the burdened vessel whether port or starboard tack when you are not racing.
I race so I know the racing rules and how close boats can get with some degree of comfort. My point is that we need to know both sets of rules and how to apply them if we intend to sail and race safely.
That's why my original question of clarification.
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Old 23-12-2007, 17:50   #37
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My point is that we need to know both sets of rules and how to apply them if we intend to sail and race safely.
,
JohnL
Yes, I agree with you absolutely, John.
It might be fun to push someone up when racing, but when cruising doing so to someone in jest when they havenít raced would seem rude if not downright unseamanlike.

I am glad I don't race anymore... it brings out a bad part in me... the aggressive, conniving, competitive me that I don't like and don't wish others to see. However racing teaches a lot of good things and I am indebted to those I have raced with.

Merry Christmas

Mark
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Old 23-12-2007, 18:59   #38
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This is why you can sail, as HelloSailor says: with a playing cards distance between the boats. If you touch you get protested but it will just be a touch, not a collision which is life threatening. i.e a protest under racing rules not a law case under COLREGS
I agree in passing situations but crossings are another matter entirely. Closing speeds in excess of 20 knots for boats on opposite tacks makes for lot's of plastic shards...

And when the starboard tack boat "has" to alter course because he precieves a collision imminent, let the protesting begin...

It's also important to remember the stand on vessels responsibilities. We ended up, due to bad planning, between to commercial ships passing head to head. Nothing dangerous as they weren't too big and there was room but my partner was at the helm and said, "Let's tack out of the way." At this point it would not have been a good idea and would have been tight. "Maintain Course and Speed" I advised.
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Old 23-12-2007, 22:39   #39
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As the stand on vessel must take evasive action as soon as a collision is evident what might be sensible?

Many responses might be interpreted as worsening the situation.
Just to clarify a little something: The stand on vessel must take action when it becomes apparent that the give way vessel is not taking appropriate action. At that point both vessels become give way vessels regardless of who initially was the stand on vessel.
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Old 23-12-2007, 22:45   #40
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At that point both vessels become give way vessels regardless of who initially was the stand on vessel.
Yes. Exactly!
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Old 23-12-2007, 22:49   #41
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At the academy we were given a pretty neat rule of thumb that is not official. "If in doubt...go right!" If you think about it, there is almost no scenario where if both vessels turn right then there can be a collision. The only common exception I can think of is in an overtaking situation.
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Old 24-12-2007, 01:42   #42
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Merry Christmas David and Mark,
It is good we have experienced folks like yourselves here for input. I do appreciate everyone's comments on this subject.
David, I've picked up the old saying, "tiller towards trouble." It doesn't really help when you're steering with a wheel and might even swing your stern into an oncoming vessel but it is one of those things I tell students if they can't remember what to do in a panic situation.
Kind Regards,
JohnL
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Old 24-12-2007, 08:36   #43
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Racing rules must be more detailed. The distance between boats in starting situations, crossing situations, and mark roundings require additional clarification.

Markj, racing is by its nature is aggressive. Winning is by definition beating the other guy which requires using the rules to your benefit. Driving the leeward boat past layline, tailing the other guy away from the line, and on and on. The day of gentlemanly racing is gone or maybe it never existed.

After 70k miles of racing I too have had enough, slowing down is nice.
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Old 24-12-2007, 12:42   #44
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Joli,

Did you ever read Chesapeake by Michener? There's a great description of a Skipjack race in one of the later chapters that just got me to thinking about competition without racing rules.

JohnL
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Old 24-12-2007, 16:12   #45
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After 70k miles of racing I too have had enough, slowing down is nice.
Yep! Merry Christmas! and a slow and lazy new year!!!!!!
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