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Old 21-12-2007, 15:15   #16
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Aloha Brett,
It has been rainy and windy here but the sun popped out for a bit this AM giving us 75 degrees and partially sunny.
Thanks for the information. I agree and that's what I posted first in my thread. I should have been more clear in my original question. Mentally I picture an overtaking vessel on starboard tack running overtaking a port tack running vessel. I believe in this situation that it doesn't matter who is on port or starboard and that the overtaking vessel must stay clear. The windward leeward rule doesn't apply in this case because it states for vessels with wind on the same side.
So, to be clear, when not racing, any overtaking vessel is the burdened vessel. Rule 13(a)
Thanks all for your input.
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Old 21-12-2007, 15:27   #17
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Jdoe nailed it. The only cases I've seen where 100% of the blame is placed on one vessel are kind of wierd. Like when a submarine surfaces underneath another vessel. Oops.

Brett
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Old 21-12-2007, 15:29   #18
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Aloha Bill and Brett,
Thanks for the rules. I have them and have read them. My question is: Does the port vs starboard rule apply going dead downwind for non racers like it does for racers?
If you are a starboard boat overtaking a port tack boat going dead downwind are you the burdened vessel?
I think Brett said yes.
My buddy the retired Matson skipper said yes.
Thanks
JohnL
The overtaking rule takes precedence over the windward/leeward rule. It does not matter which tack the sailing vessels are on if one sailboat is overtaking the other. The overtaking vessel is the give way vessel. Trust me on this, I spent four years at Cal Maritime studying and memorizing the COLREG's

The yacht racing rules are irrelevant as far as a Coast Guard Board of Investigation is concerned. If you get in a collision and somebody is injured, you can throw those out the window as far as setting up some sort of defense.
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Old 21-12-2007, 18:05   #19
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Thanks David. Good information.
What year were you at Cal Maritime?
JohnL
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Old 21-12-2007, 20:53   #20
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Last minute evasive action...

As the stand on vessel must take evasive action as soon as a collision is evident what might be sensible?

Many responses might be interpreted as worsening the situation.
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Old 22-12-2007, 02:28   #21
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As the stand on vessel must take evasive action as soon as a collision is evident what might be sensible?

Many responses might be interpreted as worsening the situation.
This is a great question and depends on the relative speeds of the two boats and what the stand on skipper thinks is imminent risk of collision.

In racing it's a big deal because making the stand on vessel swerve will always result in a protest. Playing chicken should not be encouraged.

BTW - I am too lazy to look it up but once it has been decided to take evasive action there is wording to the effect that you must do it in plenty of time and you must make it obvious what your intentions are - no 3 degree shifts.

We have lot's of channel traffic. I always make my evasive manuevers 60 degrees plus and in plenty of time.
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Old 22-12-2007, 07:38   #22
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Dave, are you saying that overtaking rules supercede port starboard rules? I don't see that in the COLREGS, please explain.

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The overtaking rule takes precedence over the windward/leeward rule. It does not matter which tack the sailing vessels are on if one sailboat is overtaking the other. The overtaking vessel is the give way vessel. Trust me on this, I spent four years at Cal Maritime studying and memorizing the COLREG's

The yacht racing rules are irrelevant as far as a Coast Guard Board of Investigation is concerned. If you get in a collision and somebody is injured, you can throw those out the window as far as setting up some sort of defense.
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Old 22-12-2007, 07:40   #23
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RULE 13
OVERTAKING
(a)Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
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Old 22-12-2007, 07:43   #24
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So you have two boats broad reaching. One port one starboard. The starboard boat is faster but acording to what you are saying they must give way?

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RULE 13

OVERTAKING
(a)Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
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Old 22-12-2007, 07:46   #25
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No - read the rest of Rule 13 - especially the next section:
(b)A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
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Old 22-12-2007, 07:58   #26
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Bill, I understand what you are saying but I can see where this is going.

Skipper one: "It wasn't my fault we touched I was starboard and broader then 22.5 degrees" and then Skipper two says: "No, you were overtaking so port/starboard does not apply".

Ok, I gotta go put up the Christmas tree. Merry Christmas all.
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Old 22-12-2007, 08:10   #27
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Dan-
"In racing it's a big deal because"
In "how to" racing books I don't think I've ever seen outright mention of this, but how you race and how you decide sufficient room, really varies with your knowledge of the competition. And your wallet. I think those of us who have spent any time racing would agree on that?

When I was on a boat with regular crew, a well-off skipper, steady winds (which mean steady control of the boat), smooth water, etc. and we KNEW that the "other boat" was also an experienced racer, everyone on both sides knew that "sufficient room" meant you could drop a playing card between the boats and it would reach the water. Anyone who has been in that situation knows, that's all it takes for clearing the other boat.
Except, there was this one boat one season, all gleaming wood and varnish, where we all followed a gentlemen's agreement of "It really would be a crime to hit that...let's give 'em room". [g]

Versus a day when there's a bit of an upset in the water, half the crew are new, the wind is gusty and all confused, and the other boat is some guy who has never been around before, with lights of confusion apparent on deck. The key phrase to listen out for is "It's the OTHER STARBOARD, @@@####!" In that case, you turn and run fast, because sufficient room means the other end of the course.[g]

Racing rules bind racers who have agreed to follow them, among themselves only. COLREGS (etc) govern the rest of us, and if we pass through a racing fleet and give them the "courtesy" of the racing rules--that's just a courtesy, not an obligation.
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Old 22-12-2007, 15:23   #28
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"sufficient room" meant you could drop a playing card between the boats .
I hadn't raced small boats for years but did the trials for the 2000 Olympics in Solings and I was amazed at how close the boats raced. Each race the top 6 would be spread by less than 30 seconds and the tail enders would only be 2 minuts after that, so the whole field of 13 to 15 boats would finish within 2 1/2 minutes. Any mistake whatsoever just puts you out of the race, so even errors where you lose 10 seconds are vital. That game was all about consistancy... being perfect the whole time! LOL

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And your wallet.

We did a weeks cruise where there was a casual race each day and the club wanted it casual... how did they ensure that? By allowing protests, but having a protest fee of $1,000 LOL. Also, the handicapper was a mathmatician and every boat on the cruise got a 1st 2nd or 3rd.

Racing does a lot for sailing knowledge, rules and over stressing the boat and crews. You find out what you can get away with.
I don't race now because I have got jack of the stress in my life. Cruising and smiling and cuddling are my lifes work now
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Old 22-12-2007, 15:50   #29
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Thanks David. Good information.
What year were you at Cal Maritime?
JohnL
I graduated in 1986.

Cheers!
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Old 22-12-2007, 15:58   #30
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Dave, are you saying that overtaking rules supercede port starboard rules? I don't see that in the COLREGS, please explain.
Joli,
Thats what I remember. It's in the rules somewhere. In learning the rules, you can't read just the rules verbatim. You have to read books that interpret the rules and read case studies. Taking all these classes and having it drilled into my head for four years also helped. The rules are simple on the surface but get very complex when looked at in depth. I don't remember off hand exactly where in the rules it has overtaking as having precedence over port/starboard for two sailing vessels...it has been over 20 years now since I graduated. But I can guarantee you it is in there. There is a hierarchy in the rules that is not explicitly stated in the rules. When I say the rules I mean the COLREG's and not the yacht racing rules. I could not tell you with any authority what the yacht racing rules say.

I can tell you that it is an extremely rare situation where in an overtaking situation that the overtaking vessel is the stand on vessel. A vessel constrained by its draft overtaking a vessel not constrained by its draft is the only one that comes to mind right now.

I think with some digging around you could find it. Right now I am feeling too lazy to go digging through the COLREG's.

Cheers!
David
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