Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

[captain58sailin]

There are a couple of points, #1, you bring up the fact you were a sailboat under power, this point is made a couple of times. When you are under power you are a power vessel period, regardless of your mast length. #2, "Safe speed" is a relative term, what may have been your determination of safe speed, could have been causing handling problems for the vessel behind you. All of which is irrelevant. Yes you were the stand on vessel, and he was the give way, he was also by your report being rude, not relevant either, other than whether or not you might want to cooperate with him. As previously stated if he had chosen to communicate with you on the radio it might have alleviated a lot of stress on both sides. If you felt that you could have increased your speed without increasing your danger factor, why not? Unless the guy was being a Richard and you didn't feel like helping him out, which would probably been my stance. When someone is being rude, I am less likely to help them out, unless circumstances dictate that there is a safety factor involved.

[OldFrog75]

If on-coming traffic, narrowness of the fairway, personal discomfort with going any faster, and no room to slide to starboard to let him pass limited you, then there wasn't a lot you could do to accomodate him and I think the rules would support you on that.

If, however, there was room for you to slide over and/or you could have reduced speed even further to let him pass, I would have chosen that course of action. He was agitated for a reason and the Corinthian Spirit would seem to suggest helping him out if possible. Doesn't excuse him from acting like a jerk but sometimes it's better to be happy than right.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

. . . Unless the guy was being a Richard and you didn't feel like helping him out, which would probably been my stance. When someone is being rude, I am less likely to help them out, unless circumstances dictate that there is a safety factor involved.

I would suggest that when someone is being a Richard is exactly the time to get out of the way. And exactly not the time to be doing any standing-on. Rude people simply cannot be good seaman, and the seamanlike response is to get the hell away from them, in my opinion.

[Pelagic]

When you are being overtaken by a deranged "Richard" the relative speed is very low. So the OP has the option to increase speed to avoid a collision.

That was always in the arsenal of options, but it should not be mandated by a Richard.

The OP was asking.... Was I in the wrong? and I would still answer NO!

[MarkSF]

This reminds me of an incident at Coyote Point marina a few years ago. It seems the locals like to sail into the marina, and in the 100 yd space at the end of the fairways, which is upwind, rapidly drop the sail.

I was visiting for the first time, and dropped my sails in the bay and motored in. Here's the thing : it's low tide and the depths in the marina are not generous. I had 1 ft under the keel in places, and was actually sitting on the keel at one point, in the visitor slip. I have no idea if I'm going to run aground or not.

So I was motoring in super-cautiously, 3 kts or so. I got shouted at by a sailing vessel behind for motoring too slowly and holding him up.

I'm pretty clear that I had the right-of-way (sail overtaking power).

[JPA Cate]

In all our writing about this incident, the one thing I don't get is why the overtaking vessel didn't at least try to go in reverse and keep control in spite of the crosswind. Maybe the channel is so narrow that he thought that would be unsafe because he only has half the channel for maneuvering in, with the traffic coming out the other way. But what probably happened is that he thought the OP was making more speed over the ground than he actually was, and that misperception of relative speed made it difficult for him because he was having difficulty controlling his craft. Doesn't give him "rights", but he wanted the OP to bail him out of the problem at the time the OP wants to cross fairways and get set up for his turn into his berth. Bad luck they were both headed to the same finger.

Ann

[MarkSF]

Don't know about your boat, but putting mine in reverse will pretty much make sure it's out of control, right away.

[Saltysailor2]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

+1

I agree with this.

Another irrelevant factor is whether the other guy was behaving like a jerk or not. Or maybe that's wrong -- maybe it is relevant -- if the other guy is behaving like a jerk, you can be sure that he will not be applying principles of good seamanship, so steer a wide berth. The other guy behaving in an unseamanlike manner imposes an additional obligation on good seaman to get out of the way, whatever the other rules say -- Rule 2.


And one more factor, is this phrase: "I won't put myself or my passengers in danger" -- that smells wrong to me. Sounds like a rationalization of unfriendly and perhaps even unseamanlike behavior, to me, and not a rule which can possibly be followed in practice. You and your passengers are already in danger, going out to sea in the first place. Slight danger, and slighter yet if you are a good seaman and well prepared, and the weather is decent, and the vessel is well prepared. But I can guaranty that I could go on board any vessel at all and find 20 or more different points which could be safer -- so on any one of 20 different points (number taken out of the air; might really be 50 points), the skipper is putting himself and his passengers in some kind of danger -- probably slight in case the vessel is in good order, but perfection doesn't exist -- and my point is that "I won't put myself in danger" is unfulfillable -- doesn't exist.

And what kind of danger is anyone being put in at 5 knots versus 4 knots or whatever, for a couple of cables? More than the danger you put your passengers into by letting your seacocks go for 15 years rather than changing them at 10 (say)? Do you have a liferaft? Do you have a backup liferaft? (I do.) Does everyone on board have a PLB on their persons? Do you have a MOB signalling system? Did you buy a boat with watertight compartments? You are putting your passengers in some danger every time you go out, in dozens of different ways.

I actually meant to say put "my vessel or passengers in danger".

That is my number one rule always. I believe most accidents happen because of a series of events with an outside factor playing a role. For example heading home after a trip when the weather is bad because you need to get back to work the next day.

The outside factor is needed to get back to work. Had nothing to do with the situation you are in at the moment. Leaving the dock then starts the series of events.

Since so many people are reading this post I decided to start another one on safety tips. Here is the shortcut url to the safety forum on this site: Safety tips to share - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Back to my post.

Very true points about how you are never totally safe but that is life.

For this trip:

I did have a lookout on the bow
Everyone on board was wearing a PFD
We filed a float plan and checked in
Our boat had a safety check from the Coast Guard Auxiliary
The fire extinguishers were check by a certifying company
3 of the 4 of us had a boater safety course (the 4th was a guest and may have)
Two of us have current CPR and first aid training
We went over rules and what to do in a man overboard situation before leaving the dock
We have dual VHF radios and GPS and charts (one set is handheld)
We have a MOV signaling system
We have several ways to get a person back on board and we practiced it.

My list goes on.

Please add to this list on my other post in the safety section. http://tinyurl.com/l3qsrct

[Saltysailor2]

I have been enjoying reading and learning from all the comments about the situation that existed and the situations that were created here.

As I stated in my original post the boat behind me did not appear to have any problem maneuvering. He kept a straight line in the middle of the starboard side of the channel. He looked in total control. He did not seem panicked as some people suggested. He was not struggling as many people suggested. The ultimate litmus test is if I saw him from the docks would I and crowd of people stop and watch. Not even for a second.

Did he have to work harder to maintain control at a slower speed. Probably, but he never mentioned that to me at the dock. He only said he was the stand on since he was towing.

As far as his behavior. I did not point that out in my original post since it was not my reason for not speeding up nor for the original post. I pointed out his behavior only because someone said there is nothing wrong with asking politely.

There was never a risk of collision of danger in my opinion. If there was then clearly other actions would need to be taken.

My gut is that he didn't appreciate being slowed down, hence the whistle and "move it".

Having said this there is a lot to be learned from the "what ifs" scenarios.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would suggest that when someone is being a Richard is exactly the time to get out of the way. And exactly not the time to be doing any standing-on. Rude people simply cannot be good seaman, and the seamanlike response is to get the hell away from them, in my opinion.

Yep, that's my assessment too .

The OP may be on the "right" side of the rules but IMO, the rules (in this instance) are trumped by seamanship.

Just in case this comment is misconstrued, proper seamanship does not include flouting the rules.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Saltysailor2

I

Place: Main narrow channel in a marina
Rules: International
My boat: pleasure craft sailboat under power (so a power boat) about 40 ft
Boat directly behind me: pleasure craft power boat, about 40 ft with a side tow of his smaller power boat (about 20 ft or less).

Why International and not Inland Rules?

-Chris

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Why International and not Inland Rules?

-Chris

Scroll down to Puget Sound: eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

[ranger58sb]

Ah. Got it. Hadn't checked. (Obviously.) Thanks.

-Chris

[Randyonr3]

I find in situations as the OP has incountered, I revert to sign language. a simple middle finger held high and pointed skyward seems to do the trick.
And at the dock, when incountered, a simple "F**K YOU" has had good results.

[captain58sailin]

No matter what you do, the guy will still be who he is. You can only control who you are. As far as maneuvering goes, you may not be in a position to judge if he was having trouble or not. Power vessels have smaller rudders and less of a keel and can take more power to control well. Coming astern for him could have been disastrous. He may also been covering up a lack of confidence in his skills. At this point it is all speculation on my part. Not having been there.