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View Poll Results: Which vessel is the Stand on vessel in the scenario of this post
Boat in front 43 97.73%
Boat with side-tow behind 1 2.27%
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Old 10-07-2014, 03:17   #91
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

anyone can be a standon *******.

everyone can be an idiot.

at any point in time we can each be one or the other.

a true Corinthian will, always be a Corinthian, by his/her actions alone.

COLOR REG'S BE DAMNED

life is good.

would you prefer to be an *******,

or/a

Corinthian???

live and let live, the space you provide, might meet your own needs someday.


lloyd

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Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
Oh good. I atlast read through it all and can inject my thoughts. First off I also have a masters license, used to sail a 39' boat and have been to Elliot Bay.

1) the main fairway in the marina is crowed and has constant traffic moving in and out of the mooring fairways. I can imagine what it is like on a major holiday. Pure insanity for sure.

2) my 39' would cruise at 2.5 kt at idle so you were likely doing more than 1.5 kt. I would for sure not be doing 5 kt there on that weekend.

3) Colregs apply and any local rules must be in conformance with the CFRs

4) It is very clear to me that you were proceeding at a speed that you felt was the max you could go in keeping with safe and prudent seamanship.

5) It is clear that he was not RAM and thus you both had the same occupation

6) It is clear that he did not feel it was safe to pass you, that he did not attempt so indicate that he wished to pass (via sound or vhf)

7) It is clear that he intended to go faster than he was and attempted to persuade you to go faster to meet his desires

In conclusion, you were proceeding at a safe speed and the vessel that came up to you was an overtaking vessel that did not feel safe in passing.

Thus you were the stand on vessel and he the burdened vessel.

All else is secondary up to the point that the overtaking vessel turns this into a Rule 2 situation.

Regards
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Old 10-07-2014, 03:30   #92
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Originally Posted by CaptForce View Post
We all see this type of feeble attempt at problem resolution.

It's just slamming a door with no success. You might as well lay down and wail while stomping your feet.
+1

Indeed. The middle finger, especially, is public self-identification as a wanker.
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Old 11-07-2014, 00:43   #93
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Saltysailor2,

I think you are being tough on yourself as a result of another operator's panicked reaction and lack of preparation.

I would certainly pick you over him to be in command of my boat.

Let us know your same speed next time out but I am sure it is above 1.5 for a 40ft boat unless you are jogging in and out of gear.

Using VHF in the PNW is common and especially maneuvering at close quarters in Marinas, where captains calmly agree on a course of action, rather than screaming over engine and wind noise.

You were prepared to communicate, yet the operator behind you wasn't.

Don't understand why some people keep making excuses for him.
He has more to learn than yourself, but keep on learning.....as we all do

Fair Winds!
Took the boat out today. Even had a wind from the same direction again.

Took it to the speed a I felt I was going the other day and it was 2.4 Knots.

Also there is a maximum speed posted in a corner of the marina. Max speed is 4 Knots.
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Old 11-07-2014, 00:51   #94
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

There was absolutely no room to pass. If that was the case there would not have been an issue at all.

He told me later that rule 13 did not apply because he was not intending to overtake me. It should be clear that you are the overtaking vessel if you would see a stern light only of the vessel in front of you. It doesn't mean that you are going to overtake.
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Old 11-07-2014, 01:11   #95
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
No matter what you do, the guy will still be who he is. You can only control who you are. As far as maneuvering goes, you may not be in a position to judge if he was having trouble or not. Power vessels have smaller rudders and less of a keel and can take more power to control well. Coming astern for him could have been disastrous. He may also been covering up a lack of confidence in his skills. At this point it is all speculation on my part. Not having been there.
Even though I have years of experience on the water I am always looking to learn more. That is why I posted in the first place.

Your post has a great take away for me. I am very aware that power boats have less control at slower speeds. But I am going to pay even more attention to that than I already do.

By the way many people have been commenting on the skills of the opperator of the power boat. I did not recognize him when he was behind me but I do know who he is and he in an excellent boat handler.
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Old 11-07-2014, 01:39   #96
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quite a bit has been said here, and I'll chime in. We recently had another thread started by Tacoma Sailor about narrow channels sailboats under sail and overtaking etc.

Here you are both power boats (doesn't matter that you have a mast - you noted you were under engine power). His sidetow does not per se make him a RAM. Under certain conditions it might, but then he would need to be flying all the appropriate day signals to claim that status.

So what we have is someone who (for whatever reason) wants to go faster down the narrow and trafficked (you noted there was oncoming traffic) channel.

Looking at the pic and your description and noting that you now feel you were going at 2.5 knots, then there are actually no rules coming into play here except rule 2.

He, for whatever reason, wanted to go faster, you were proceeding at what you felt (as master of your vesseel) to be a safe speed in confined quarters. He apparently also did not want to overtake you, so rule 13 or rule 9 cannot come into play.

The burden falls on him. If he needs to move at say 3 or 3.5 knots to safely control his boat with a side tow, then it is up ot him to time his entrance so he can do just that. Or, as some have suggested, call the marina and ask them to clear all traffic in the lane until he makes it in.

On the other hand, whenever you maneuver in tight quarters, it is not only polite, but good seamanship to help out another boater who is having problems (to the limit of where any such manuever will give you problems)
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Old 11-07-2014, 01:46   #97
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Originally Posted by Saltysailor2 View Post
There was absolutely no room to pass. If that was the case there would not have been an issue at all.

He told me later that rule 13 did not apply because he was not intending to overtake me. It should be clear that you are the overtaking vessel if you would see a stern light only of the vessel in front of you. It doesn't mean that you are going to overtake.
Correct. "Overtaking" means approaching another vessel from more than 22.5 degrees abaft the beam of the other vessel. Intention to pass has absolutely nothing to do with it.


On the other hand, you were making 2.5 knots??? In a fairway?? That is below steerage for many vessels. My boat makes about 3.5 to 4 knots at idle -- I would be struggling to control my boat if I had to follow you at that speed. If I were towing something which made it hard for me to circle around, and if it were not dead calm such that I could just drift out of gear waiting for you, then I would most likely be asking you to speed up. Very politely of course, but still -- this puts the whole situation in a somewhat different light.
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Old 11-07-2014, 01:57   #98
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Don't think so, Dockhead. Since when does someone astern of you get to tell you how fast to go as you're planning your turn into your berth? Seems highly unlikely to me.

It's fiddly and a PITA, but our boat can be driven at less than a knot, how slow depending on the strength of the tide--and yes, one is in an out of gear, and one has to pay an extremely great deal of attention, but it can be done. May be more than one safety issue here.......

Ann
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:01   #99
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Correct. "Overtaking" means approaching another vessel from more than 22.5 degrees abaft the beam of the other vessel. Intention to pass has absolutely nothing to do with it.


On the other hand, you were making 2.5 knots??? In a fairway?? That is below steerage for many vessels. My boat makes about 3.5 to 4 knots at idle -- I would be struggling to control my boat if I had to follow you at that speed. If I were towing something which made it hard for me to circle around, and if it were not dead calm such that I could just drift out of gear waiting for you, then I would most likely be asking you to speed up. Very politely of course, but still -- this puts the whole situation in a somewhat different light.
The OP posted earlier not just that he was moving at 2.5 knots but this as well.

Even with a tiny breeze from astern it seems like your boat would be exceeding the posted speed limit at idle in this marina.

Maybe we have a different definition of idle but to me it means when the throttle is at its lowest setting. If you have to go 3.5 knots minimum to avoid struggling to control your boat you may need to consider a different boat.

"Took the boat out today. Even had a wind from the same direction again.

Took it to the speed a I felt I was going the other day and it was 2.4 Knots.

Also there is a maximum speed posted in a corner of the marina. Max speed is 4 Knots. "
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:17   #100
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
The OP posted earlier not just that he was moving at 2.5 knots but this as well.

Even with a tiny breeze from astern it seems like your boat would be exceeding the posted speed limit at idle in this marina.

Maybe we have a different definition of idle but to me it means when the throttle is at its lowest setting. If you have to go 3.5 knots minimum to avoid struggling to control your boat you may need to consider a different boat.

"Took the boat out today. Even had a wind from the same direction again.

Took it to the speed a I felt I was going the other day and it was 2.4 Knots.

Also there is a maximum speed posted in a corner of the marina. Max speed is 4 Knots. "
I have a Brunton Autoprop which pitches up at low loads. At idle -- by which I mean 800 RPM -- the boat will not motor at less than 3.5 knots or so.

But many vessels become unmanageable at these kinds of speeds, especially with any wind blowing.

I still don't really understand whether this was in a fairway or actually inside a marina. If it was inside a marina and the OP was actually going into his berth, then of course I agree there's almost nothing he could have possibly done, and the other guy really needed to back up, circle around, or do whatever would be necessary to keep clear.

If it was in a fairway, then the guy following with the hip tow (and the ludicrously poor understanding of anticollision rules) should still have kept clear, but the OP should have done whatever reasonably possible to give him a break, even if it would have meant some inconvenience or slight risk to himself. 2.5 knots in a fairway really creates problems for many vessels which just can't maneuver at such speeds, and the fact that you are the stand-on vessel under Rule 13 because you are being overtaken does not give you the right to just ignore the problems of vessels struggling behind you. As has been said so many times on here -- it's different from on roads, where you have no kind of responsibility at all towards vehicles following you. At sea, Rule 2 requires you to use good seamanship and avoid creating problems for other sailors, whether you are stand-on or give-way under the other rules.
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:25   #101
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Many twin diesel sportfish and 35-65 Motoryachts I've run idle at less than 5 knots...maybe 6 or 7...usually many of the sportfish opt for trolling valves but many don't as they are right around the 5 knot mark.

You have to constantly shift in and out of gear or try and manage on one engine that can cause some maneuvering difficulties in really confined areas.

Telling people to pick different boats seems to come up a lot in these forums...what's funny it's often to people that have lots of experience...and really DON'T have unusual boats.....weird......
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:49   #102
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Many twin diesel sportfish and 35-65 Motoryachts I've run idle at less than 5 knots...maybe 6 or 7...usually many of the sportfish opt for trolling valves but many don't as they are right around the 5 knot mark.

You have to constantly shift in and out of gear or try and manage on one engine that can cause some maneuvering difficulties in really confined areas.

Telling people to pick different boats seems to come up a lot in these forums...what's funny it's often to people that have lots of experience...and really DON'T have unusual boats.....weird......
Horses for courses.

Boot Key is a fairly crowded marina, especially in season. I have seen plenty of Yellowfins and Contenders going through the harbor and out Sisters Creek which is a narrow winding route out of the harbor to open water with multiple side canals that boats can pop out of with little notice. There are no wake signs and caution manatee signs all over the place. There are also FWC guys that will ticket boats in a New York minute if there is too large a wake or excess speed.

My point was that while you are free to make snide remarks at CF about how your boat has to go faster to maintain control and get away with it if you try and pull that stunt with an FWC officer not only will you get a speeding ticket you will also probably get boarded and inspected and I assure you the FWC guys can find something else to give you another ticket for. Don't even thing about giving lip to a FWC officer if they tell you slow down, or to get another boat.

There have been multiple threads about how Florida can be unfriendly to cruisers and is imposing too many rules. I have been to meetings in Marathon where big bucks condo owners complain that boats speeding past their property and throwing up a big wake damages the sea wall and causes problems for boats docked on the sea wall. When the condo guys request strict enforcement of the speed limits guess what is gonna happen.

One summer after graduating from college and waiting for school to start I was a mate on a charter boat. I know what it is like to dock and navigate at low speed in skinny water. I also know just how mad it makes some folks when a power boat is going too fast and throwing up a wake that causes problems.

Bottom line is if you have a boat that needs to maintain five knots to maintain steerage way you may have to make a choice between getting another boat or getting another marina.
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Old 11-07-2014, 10:24   #103
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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I have a Brunton Autoprop which pitches up at low loads. At idle -- by which I mean 800 RPM -- the boat will not motor at less than 3.5 knots or so.

But many vessels become unmanageable at these kinds of speeds, especially with any wind blowing.

I still don't really understand whether this was in a fairway or actually inside a marina. If it was inside a marina and the OP was actually going into his berth, then of course I agree there's almost nothing he could have possibly done, and the other guy really needed to back up, circle around, or do whatever would be necessary to keep clear.

If it was in a fairway, then the guy following with the hip tow (and the ludicrously poor understanding of anticollision rules) should still have kept clear, but the OP should have done whatever reasonably possible to give him a break, even if it would have meant some inconvenience or slight risk to himself. 2.5 knots in a fairway really creates problems for many vessels which just can't maneuver at such speeds, and the fact that you are the stand-on vessel under Rule 13 because you are being overtaken does not give you the right to just ignore the problems of vessels struggling behind you. As has been said so many times on here -- it's different from on roads, where you have no kind of responsibility at all towards vehicles following you. At sea, Rule 2 requires you to use good seamanship and avoid creating problems for other sailors, whether you are stand-on or give-way under the other rules.
This was actually inside the marina and I was going towards my dock and slip.

One point of interest it that there are two entrances into the marina, an East and West Entrance. Both of us only have to pass 2 docks to get to our dock if we enter from the West but 11 if we enter from the East. I entered from the East that day so that I could pump out at the fuel dock. I decided to pass the fuel dock in the end since there was no space available there. I do not know why the power boat with the side tow did not choose the shorter route when entering the marina. It is also much wider on the West side.
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Old 11-07-2014, 11:46   #104
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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I still don't really understand whether this was in a fairway or actually inside a marina. If it was inside a marina and the OP was actually going into his berth, then of course I agree there's almost nothing he could have possibly done, and the other guy really needed to back up, circle around, or do whatever would be necessary to keep clear.
Not to hijack this thread but this terminology can be confusing. At MDR we have 8 dock basins off the main channel each of which has rows of docks with slips on either side of a body of water in the middle of the basin. When describing the traffic flow I say, "the channel leads to the fairways (basins), the fairways lead to fingers, and the fingers lead to slips".

Others say "finger is a term for hard docks not water" so they would describe it as, "channel leads to fairways (basins), fairways lead to smaller fairways, and the smaller fairways lead to the slips"; "or channel leads to smaller channels (basins), smaller channel leads to fairways, and fairways lead to slips". So when someone says, "I was in the fairway", I usually have to ask, for clarification because I don't know exactly what they mean.

I'm curious what most CF members call the very narrow body of water inside a marina between docks which has slips on either side of it?

As I look at the satellite photo provided by SS, I would call the water between the breakwater and the docks a fairway, and the water between the docks fingers, all of which are contained in the Marina and there is no channel.
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Old 11-07-2014, 12:05   #105
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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If on-coming traffic, narrowness of the fairway, personal discomfort with going any faster, and no room to slide to starboard to let him pass limited you, then there wasn't a lot you could do to accomodate him and I think the rules would support you on that.

If, however, there was room for you to slide over and/or you could have reduced speed even further to let him pass, I would have chosen that course of action. He was agitated for a reason and the Corinthian Spirit would seem to suggest helping him out if possible. Doesn't excuse him from acting like a jerk but sometimes it's better to be happy than right.

I gotta side with OldFrog 75 on this... yes you are the 'stand on' vessel but it is incumbent on BOTH skippers to avoid collision if possible. Manys the time over 50 years at sea where I gave up what would be construed as 'my right' under maritime law and cloregs to accommodate who considered to be a complete idiot to avoid a problem. Just not worth the candle imo. Phil
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