Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: Which vessel is the Stand on vessel in the scenario of this post
Boat in front 43 97.73%
Boat with side-tow behind 1 2.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-07-2014, 09:57   #61
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

There are a couple of points, #1, you bring up the fact you were a sailboat under power, this point is made a couple of times. When you are under power you are a power vessel period, regardless of your mast length. #2, "Safe speed" is a relative term, what may have been your determination of safe speed, could have been causing handling problems for the vessel behind you. All of which is irrelevant. Yes you were the stand on vessel, and he was the give way, he was also by your report being rude, not relevant either, other than whether or not you might want to cooperate with him. As previously stated if he had chosen to communicate with you on the radio it might have alleviated a lot of stress on both sides. If you felt that you could have increased your speed without increasing your danger factor, why not? Unless the guy was being a Richard and you didn't feel like helping him out, which would probably been my stance. When someone is being rude, I am less likely to help them out, unless circumstances dictate that there is a safety factor involved.
__________________

__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 10:49   #62
Registered User
 
OldFrog75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Boat: Club Sailor; various
Posts: 922
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

If on-coming traffic, narrowness of the fairway, personal discomfort with going any faster, and no room to slide to starboard to let him pass limited you, then there wasn't a lot you could do to accomodate him and I think the rules would support you on that.

If, however, there was room for you to slide over and/or you could have reduced speed even further to let him pass, I would have chosen that course of action. He was agitated for a reason and the Corinthian Spirit would seem to suggest helping him out if possible. Doesn't excuse him from acting like a jerk but sometimes it's better to be happy than right.

__________________

__________________
OldFrog75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 10:57   #63
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,730
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
. . . Unless the guy was being a Richard and you didn't feel like helping him out, which would probably been my stance. When someone is being rude, I am less likely to help them out, unless circumstances dictate that there is a safety factor involved.
I would suggest that when someone is being a Richard is exactly the time to get out of the way. And exactly not the time to be doing any standing-on. Rude people simply cannot be good seaman, and the seamanlike response is to get the hell away from them, in my opinion.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 12:32   #64
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,872
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

When you are being overtaken by a deranged "Richard" the relative speed is very low. So the OP has the option to increase speed to avoid a collision.

That was always in the arsenal of options, but it should not be mandated by a Richard.

The OP was asking.... Was I in the wrong? and I would still answer NO!
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 13:15   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,243
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

This reminds me of an incident at Coyote Point marina a few years ago. It seems the locals like to sail into the marina, and in the 100 yd space at the end of the fairways, which is upwind, rapidly drop the sail.

I was visiting for the first time, and dropped my sails in the bay and motored in. Here's the thing : it's low tide and the depths in the marina are not generous. I had 1 ft under the keel in places, and was actually sitting on the keel at one point, in the visitor slip. I have no idea if I'm going to run aground or not.

So I was motoring in super-cautiously, 3 kts or so. I got shouted at by a sailing vessel behind for motoring too slowly and holding him up.

I'm pretty clear that I had the right-of-way (sail overtaking power).
__________________
MarkSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 15:05   #66
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,657
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

In all our writing about this incident, the one thing I don't get is why the overtaking vessel didn't at least try to go in reverse and keep control in spite of the crosswind. Maybe the channel is so narrow that he thought that would be unsafe because he only has half the channel for maneuvering in, with the traffic coming out the other way. But what probably happened is that he thought the OP was making more speed over the ground than he actually was, and that misperception of relative speed made it difficult for him because he was having difficulty controlling his craft. Doesn't give him "rights", but he wanted the OP to bail him out of the problem at the time the OP wants to cross fairways and get set up for his turn into his berth. Bad luck they were both headed to the same finger.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 15:21   #67
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,243
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Don't know about your boat, but putting mine in reverse will pretty much make sure it's out of control, right away.
__________________
MarkSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 18:18   #68
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
+1

I agree with this.

Another irrelevant factor is whether the other guy was behaving like a jerk or not. Or maybe that's wrong -- maybe it is relevant -- if the other guy is behaving like a jerk, you can be sure that he will not be applying principles of good seamanship, so steer a wide berth. The other guy behaving in an unseamanlike manner imposes an additional obligation on good seaman to get out of the way, whatever the other rules say -- Rule 2.


And one more factor, is this phrase: "I won't put myself or my passengers in danger" -- that smells wrong to me. Sounds like a rationalization of unfriendly and perhaps even unseamanlike behavior, to me, and not a rule which can possibly be followed in practice. You and your passengers are already in danger, going out to sea in the first place. Slight danger, and slighter yet if you are a good seaman and well prepared, and the weather is decent, and the vessel is well prepared. But I can guaranty that I could go on board any vessel at all and find 20 or more different points which could be safer -- so on any one of 20 different points (number taken out of the air; might really be 50 points), the skipper is putting himself and his passengers in some kind of danger -- probably slight in case the vessel is in good order, but perfection doesn't exist -- and my point is that "I won't put myself in danger" is unfulfillable -- doesn't exist.

And what kind of danger is anyone being put in at 5 knots versus 4 knots or whatever, for a couple of cables? More than the danger you put your passengers into by letting your seacocks go for 15 years rather than changing them at 10 (say)? Do you have a liferaft? Do you have a backup liferaft? (I do.) Does everyone on board have a PLB on their persons? Do you have a MOB signalling system? Did you buy a boat with watertight compartments? You are putting your passengers in some danger every time you go out, in dozens of different ways.
I actually meant to say put "my vessel or passengers in danger".

That is my number one rule always. I believe most accidents happen because of a series of events with an outside factor playing a role. For example heading home after a trip when the weather is bad because you need to get back to work the next day.

The outside factor is needed to get back to work. Had nothing to do with the situation you are in at the moment. Leaving the dock then starts the series of events.

Since so many people are reading this post I decided to start another one on safety tips. Here is the shortcut url to the safety forum on this site: Safety tips to share - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Back to my post.

Very true points about how you are never totally safe but that is life.

For this trip:

I did have a lookout on the bow
Everyone on board was wearing a PFD
We filed a float plan and checked in
Our boat had a safety check from the Coast Guard Auxiliary
The fire extinguishers were check by a certifying company
3 of the 4 of us had a boater safety course (the 4th was a guest and may have)
Two of us have current CPR and first aid training
We went over rules and what to do in a man overboard situation before leaving the dock
We have dual VHF radios and GPS and charts (one set is handheld)
We have a MOV signaling system
We have several ways to get a person back on board and we practiced it.

My list goes on.

Please add to this list on my other post in the safety section. http://tinyurl.com/l3qsrct
__________________
Saltysailor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 18:20   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

I have been enjoying reading and learning from all the comments about the situation that existed and the situations that were created here.

As I stated in my original post the boat behind me did not appear to have any problem maneuvering. He kept a straight line in the middle of the starboard side of the channel. He looked in total control. He did not seem panicked as some people suggested. He was not struggling as many people suggested. The ultimate litmus test is if I saw him from the docks would I and crowd of people stop and watch. Not even for a second.

Did he have to work harder to maintain control at a slower speed. Probably, but he never mentioned that to me at the dock. He only said he was the stand on since he was towing.

As far as his behavior. I did not point that out in my original post since it was not my reason for not speeding up nor for the original post. I pointed out his behavior only because someone said there is nothing wrong with asking politely.

There was never a risk of collision of danger in my opinion. If there was then clearly other actions would need to be taken.

My gut is that he didn't appreciate being slowed down, hence the whistle and "move it".

Having said this there is a lot to be learned from the "what ifs" scenarios.
__________________
Saltysailor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 02:45   #70
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I would suggest that when someone is being a Richard is exactly the time to get out of the way. And exactly not the time to be doing any standing-on. Rude people simply cannot be good seaman, and the seamanlike response is to get the hell away from them, in my opinion.
Yep, that's my assessment too .

The OP may be on the "right" side of the rules but IMO, the rules (in this instance) are trumped by seamanship.

Just in case this comment is misconstrued, proper seamanship does not include flouting the rules.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 06:12   #71
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 2,981
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltysailor2 View Post
I

Place: Main narrow channel in a marina
Rules: International
My boat: pleasure craft sailboat under power (so a power boat) about 40 ft
Boat directly behind me: pleasure craft power boat, about 40 ft with a side tow of his smaller power boat (about 20 ft or less).

Why International and not Inland Rules?

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 06:19   #72
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,633
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Why International and not Inland Rules?

-Chris
Scroll down to Puget Sound: eCFR ‚ÄĒ Code of Federal Regulations
__________________
Lodesman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 08:38   #73
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 2,981
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Ah. Got it. Hadn't checked. (Obviously.) Thanks.

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 09:01   #74
Senior Cruiser
 
Randyonr3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Beneteau FIRST 42
Posts: 1,836
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

I find in situations as the OP has incountered, I revert to sign language. a simple middle finger held high and pointed skyward seems to do the trick.
And at the dock, when incountered, a simple "F**K YOU" has had good results.
__________________
Randyonr3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 09:12   #75
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

No matter what you do, the guy will still be who he is. You can only control who you are. As far as maneuvering goes, you may not be in a position to judge if he was having trouble or not. Power vessels have smaller rudders and less of a keel and can take more power to control well. Coming astern for him could have been disastrous. He may also been covering up a lack of confidence in his skills. At this point it is all speculation on my part. Not having been there.
__________________

__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II TacomaSailor Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 120 28-06-2014 09:01
Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing TacomaSailor Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 152 21-06-2014 21:15
Dual Vessel Views -vs- Single Vessel View on Dual Cummings MV WOLFPACK Marine Electronics 0 12-04-2014 07:45
Vessel on a Vessel rj_whitten Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 7 27-03-2011 09:10
Overtaking vs Port/Starboard Tack SkiprJohn Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 47 15-01-2008 13:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:39.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.