Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: Which vessel is the Stand on vessel in the scenario of this post
Boat in front 43 97.73%
Boat with side-tow behind 1 2.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-07-2014, 19:31   #31
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltysailor2 View Post

So there are two questions here.

The first is what actions should be taken by both boaters. For that there have been plenty of comments and I welcome more.

The second is a basic rules of the road question which is: Which vessel is the Stand on vessel and which is the Giveway? Only a few people commented on that.
Thanks for your honesty describing the situation.

Second question first - I don't think you had any obligation under the rules.

First question - I looked at the picture and I looked at the chart. It does seem like close quarters. You admit there was crosswind and windage was a factor for the other boat. 1 1/2 knots is pretty slow. If you had no one in front I would have sped up. Is there a marina speed posted or is it just a no wake sign? He may have been unwise to enter the marina as you say it was crowded, but what is he supposed to do, wait till everyone goes home?
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 19:42   #32
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,880
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Good Questions psneeld and this is where you need to look outside COLREGS to the legal interpretation of court cases and precedent set.

A Marina is private property with a foreshore lease so their rules and management take precedent. In many busy Marinas you are required to call for permission to enter and the Marina will dictate the order of entry... So their rules inside the property take priority.
(Accepted default is first come first served)

Same legal and common sense interpretation would be made by the "Elder Brethren" who advise the judge on nautical matters.

Is this a commercial towing vessel?
Does it carry and show the proper lights and day shapes of a tug?
Is the length of tow sufficient to cause misunderstanding with a crossing vessel?

Basically the same reason why 2 guys in a 14ft tin boat with fishing gear are not recognised as fishing vessels legally. It would be chaos!

Edit: absolutely right! Talking it out should have been the first solution in a close quarter situation.
The OP tried.... I just don't like bullies!
__________________

__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 20:06   #33
cruiser

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,130
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Oh, god, both of you sail here.
__________________
Jammer Six is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 20:07   #34
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,831
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Good Questions psneeld and this is where you need to look outside COLREGS to the legal interpretation of court cases and precedent set.

A Marina is private property with a foreshore lease so their rules and management take precedent. In many busy Marinas you are required to call for permission to enter and the Marina will dictate the order of entry... So their rules inside the property take priority.
(Accepted default is first come first served)

Same legal and common sense interpretation would be made by the "Elder Brethren" who advise the judge on nautical matters.

Is this a commercial towing vessel?
Does it carry and show the proper lights and day shapes of a tug?
Is the length of tow sufficient to cause misunderstanding with a crossing vessel?

Basically the same reason why 2 guys in a 14ft boat with fishing gear are not recognised as fishing vessels legally. It would be chaos!
I can see your points and as usual official guidance often is the "maritime court will rule on the appropriate rules and interpretations"...But I will bet even money there are precedents that would lean to the opposite of your examples also. There was a case here that wacked a captain for not turning right to go behind a crossing vessel. It was in a narrow channel (in most operators eyes) and the skipper would have had to dodge a marker at night and turn into shallow water to make the manuever. None of this seemed important (along with all the occupants of the other vessel being well above intoxication limits)...there was no context of prudent seamanship...just raw application of the crossing vessel issue. Needless to say it cause a lot of letter writing by many licensed captains wondering what the heck was going on...

Of course private rules are enforceable above and beyond Colregs...state and federal maritime laws here in the US abound....and even the Colregs have Rule 1.

"(b) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbors, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules"

Then there's rule 2 which is supposed to give latitude to to capatains for "best practices" for a simple term...but the looser the rule the tighter the noose usually.


I would be hesitant to ignore the rules just because there was precedent elsewhere... but it certainly makes sense and realistically...bad interactions between seasoned captains are rare compared to the normal "chaos" that exists along the Atlantic ICW in the US..
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 20:20   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
1.5 knots, a cross wind, and you assume he had control? No keel, probably single screw, and a tow. What did your Master license class suggest about that combination?

Granted yelling was not much of a plan, but ignoring him was not much of a plan either. He may have been a jackass and he didn't have much of a plan. He may also have been scared. If it was so crowded that going at 1.5 knots was required, safety should have been the only concern.

---

But "I will deal with you later" is adolescent and dangerous.
I did not ignore him. I asked him twice to contact me on the radio. My request for radio communication was so that I could continue to look forward while communicating, not having to try to hear and speak over a distance and over engine noise, and to figured something out that addressed both our concerns.

I think a lot of people are timid about communicating on radios but it is very effective.
__________________
Saltysailor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 20:25   #36
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltysailor2 View Post
I did not ignore him. I asked him twice to contact me on the radio. My request for radio communication was so that I could continue to look forward while communicating, not having to try to hear and speak over a distance and over engine noise, and to figured something out that addressed both our concerns.

I think a lot of people are timid about communicating on radios but it is very effective.
I am not sure the communications issue isn't a red herring. His request was clear, your reply was clear.

A protracted discussion on the radio wouldn't have likely solved anything.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 20:30   #37
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,373
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltysailor2 View Post
I did not ignore him. I asked him twice to contact me on the radio. My request for radio communication was so that I could continue to look forward while communicating, not having to try to hear and speak over a distance and over engine noise, and to figured something out that addressed both our concerns.

I think a lot of people are timid about communicating on radios but it is very effective.
Or he didn't have a radio at that helm station or it wasn't working or he had his hands full and couldn't let go to turn it on and find a channel or.....?

Either way, I would say technically you were right and from your description the guy was acting like a jerk and he did put himself in that position. But 1.5 kts is very slow and I would guess he was at the bare edge of control with a cross wind.

I confess, like Ann Cate, someone yelling at me is like waving a red flag at a bull. Still, I like to think I would have sped up just a bit to give the guy behind me a little more control. 2-3 kts is not a dangerous speed for you in the situation you describe unless you had engine problems or were just about to turn into your slip.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 20:32   #38
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,413
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Sounds like a "no wake zone" with maximum speed of 5 mph regardless whether posted (leastwise in CA because there are boats at dock and assuming you're within 200 feet of the boat-occupied docks.) My minimum speed at idle is about 3 knots. If following you going at less than that speed, I'd have to go in and out of gear, but while an inconvenience, it's no particular problem. Just because one has a dinghy aside or being towed, doesn't give one special rights.

Still, 1.5 knots is painfully slow. Why? Were you just about to enter a slip?
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 20:50   #39
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltysailor2 View Post
I did not look at my speed since I go through this channel all the time. My speed was similar to other boats that go through the channel. I would guess I was at 1.5 knots.
A lot of folks seem to be hung up on your speed, but I would guess you've underestimated it. 1.5 kts is granny on her walker - speed. If your speed was similar to others, then I suggest you may have been closer to 3-4 kts (walking or fast walking speed).

I voted, you were stand-on. I have to ask: when you say "masters license" what is the actual ticket?
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 21:05   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Thanks for your honesty describing the situation.

Second question first - I don't think you had any obligation under the rules.

First question - I looked at the picture and I looked at the chart. It does seem like close quarters. You admit there was crosswind and windage was a factor for the other boat. 1 1/2 knots is pretty slow. If you had no one in front I would have sped up. Is there a marina speed posted or is it just a no wake sign? He may have been unwise to enter the marina as you say it was crowded, but what is he supposed to do, wait till everyone goes home?
I never noticed any posted signs for speed. So I just called and asked the Marina if there is a speed limit. They said its just no wake but go about 2 knots. I really never look at MY GPS for my speed in the marina so 1.5 is my guess. The next time I am out there I may try to figure out how fast I was actually going and post it here. But I was going at a speed which I felt was the right speed for the conditions which included a lot of traffic.

Now if I was in his shoes I would have asked the harbor master for a temporary tie on the outside dock and then brought one boat in at a time IF I had a concern for maneuverability. If I had a second capable crew member I would have separated the tow as well and each person could have skippered one boat.
__________________
Saltysailor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 21:21   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Or he didn't have a radio at that helm station or it wasn't working or he had his hands full and couldn't let go to turn it on and find a channel or.....?

Either way, I would say technically you were right and from your description the guy was acting like a jerk and he did put himself in that position. But 1.5 kts is very slow and I would guess he was at the bare edge of control with a cross wind.

I confess, like Ann Cate, someone yelling at me is like waving a red flag at a bull. Still, I like to think I would have sped up just a bit to give the guy behind me a little more control. 2-3 kts is not a dangerous speed for you in the situation you describe unless you had engine problems or were just about to turn into your slip.
Again 1.5 is my guess of my speed. I doubt I was over 2. The reason for the slow speed is that I was over to starboard since there was on coming traffic to port. Tide was mostly out so channel was extra narrow. On the starboard side as I go by visibility into the slips is minimal. I was about 300 feet from the end of my dock when this encounter occurred. I have to turn in right away since I am the first slip. I will admit I take it slow in marinas and while docking. It may be because I am the captain of a 38 ton vessel with a single screw as well and I have to come in extremely slowly on that boat.
__________________
Saltysailor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 21:25   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
A lot of folks seem to be hung up on your speed, but I would guess you've underestimated it. 1.5 kts is granny on her walker - speed. If your speed was similar to others, then I suggest you may have been closer to 3-4 kts (walking or fast walking speed).

I voted, you were stand-on. I have to ask: when you say "masters license" what is the actual ticket?
I probably was going faster than 1.5. I was going faster than someone could jog.

My actual masters is a 50 ton with towing and sailing endorsements. I also work as a captain all year round but part time.
__________________
Saltysailor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 21:56   #43
Registered User
 
Dauntlessny's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: USA & Europe
Boat: Kadey Krogen '42
Posts: 273
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltysailor2 View Post
I probably was going faster than 1.5. I was going faster than someone could jog.

My actual masters is a 50 ton with towing and sailing endorsements. I also work as a captain all year round but part time.
To sum it up, I think by the rules, you were right, but only if you felt to do anything else was dangerous.

Since you asked the question, I will tell you my opinion.

You may have been right, but you were not very considerate.

Notwithstanding your speed, the other captain obviously felt he needed some cooperation from you to decrease his risk.

You seemed not willing to help him, only because of the way he asked you. Otherwise, there would be no point in him calling you on the radio.

THat to me puts you in the wrong.

As psneeld has said, there are those times, I have increased my risk, to help someone, who needed that help, regardless of whether they deserved that help or not.

On a side note, my idle speed is 3 to 4 knots. Depending on wind and current, if I put it in neutral to slow down under the circumstances described, I will quickly lose steerage.

then who would have the Right of Way?
or would I have to put up the correct day shapes and/ or lights, before that was recognized?

just asking
__________________
Richard on M/Y Dauntless
https://dauntlessatsea.com/
Location: https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Dauntlessny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 23:32   #44
Registered User
 
scotty c-m's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: catalina 400 MKII
Posts: 188
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Yes, overtaking boat gives way, except if it causes a danger - so you both share responcibility by the rules of the road, in my opinion. However, more importantly is that you both needed to see the situation developing early on and take action. 1 or 2 knots is pretty slow, and allows you to eithor speed up or pull way over to let him pass. I know that you say that was not possible, but looking at that channel, it seems that you had options. Where you both seem to have room for improvement is in working together to find a way for both of you to have your needs met. I sail out of a narrow harbor (Santa Cruz, California) and there's a whole lot of give and take that we exercise when the fairway is crowded. You guys are in a small community and it's a whole lot more fun - and safe - when you have friendly exchanges. My suggestion is buy the guy a bottle of whiskey and offer to share it with him.
__________________
scotty c-m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 00:06   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Thank you all for your comments.

I joined this group to post this question. I am very impressed with the thoughtful responses that I will continue to be active in this forum.

So here is what I am summing up.

What I would do if in the situation again in this order:

1. I would speed up as much as I felt safe to do.

2. I would still recommend that he contact me on the radio. I believe a lot can be resolved on the radio. For example if I could not speed up enough for him, I could let him know that early so he could take other actions if needed and not waste his time asking again. If for example I was about to speed up momentarily after clearing an obstacle that I saw that he did not I could share that information.

3. After speeding up as much as I could or saying "no" if I could not speed up at all I would just continue on my way. No need for a second response since I will not put my vessel or passengers in danger.

Other comments:

I enjoyed the technical side of this discussion as well. I think that it is clear that just because a vessel is towing something it does not make it a vessel engaged in towing for the purpose of right or way. The fishing boat was good example.

There were many assumptions that I did not speed up because he was rude. That was never the case and I never said that. However who knows how one would react if someone said can you please speed up and then smiled. Would I take more risks for a smile than a scream. Probably, but even then only up to a point.

One point that only a few touched on was that the give way vessel thought he was the stand on vessel. If he knew he was the give way vessel would he have acted differently even before entering the channel and afterwards?

Thought:

The funny thing about Masters licenses is that you test once and renew but don't need to re-test (like driving a car). So you could forget who has right of way over time. I make it a practice to study the rules of the road every year as if I am studying for test. I do agree with the folks that said the rules are not everything but that is what rule 2 is for. So I guess there is no way of getting away from the rules since breaking rules is part of rules. Sort of.
__________________

__________________
Saltysailor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II TacomaSailor Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 120 28-06-2014 09:01
Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing TacomaSailor Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 152 21-06-2014 21:15
Dual Vessel Views -vs- Single Vessel View on Dual Cummings MV WOLFPACK Marine Electronics 0 12-04-2014 07:45
Vessel on a Vessel rj_whitten Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 7 27-03-2011 09:10
Overtaking vs Port/Starboard Tack SkiprJohn Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 47 15-01-2008 13:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.