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View Poll Results: Which vessel is the Stand on vessel in the scenario of this post
Boat in front 43 97.73%
Boat with side-tow behind 1 2.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-07-2014, 09:53   #16
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Re: Overtaking vessel wanting you to speed up

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Plus RAM is usually considered an open water concept..there is no pecking order in Rule 9 except over 20M being stand on over those below 20M and those NOT needing/using the channel fairway being giveway to everyone needing /using the channe/fairway.

Rule 18 starts off with...

Rule 18 - Responsibilities Between Vessels

Except where Rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:

(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing;
(iv) a sailing vessel.

So if in a narrow channel or fairway and can't maneuver to accommodate other traffic...even a RAM vessel towing has no privilege.
But I do have an issue with people who can see that another vessel is struggling and either ignore the situation or hold their ground thinking the rules are everything.

I have ducked down side fairways, backed out of narrow places, etc...etc...when I see that a vessel has little chance of success without aging the Captain...I try and accommodate...even if it's a little more risk to me but a lot more risk to him if I don't.
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Old 07-07-2014, 14:13   #17
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

First I would like to thank everyone for posting. I just came upon this site and am glad to have a place to ask (and answer) these types questions.

A number of people have asked for more information. So here goes. Please let me know if you need more.

First a picture of the marina
elliott bay marina - Google Search

Next his initial request was not a polite request. He just screamed "move it" and waved both hands forward and whistled with his mouth.

I did not look at my speed since I go through this channel all the time. My speed was similar to other boats that go through the channel. I would guess I was at 1.5 knots. It is a no wake zone and it was very crowded being the end of a holiday weekend.

There were no obstacles.

There was a wind coming broadside and he was a trawler with some windage.

No one was sailing. Even though my boat is a sail boat I was a under power.

He came up from behind me. I entered from the main entrance of the main channel. So I always had the forward position.

He first asked me to "move it" when I was length wise in the middle of the channel on the starboard side.

I asked him to radio me if he had to speak with me, which he did not.

I am as a whole a very polite boater and even with the scream tried to move it up slightly faster but felt I was going at a safe speed that should not cause any boat to loose steerage. He screamed, whistled, and waved his

I often give up my right of way to play it safe when I feel the other boater does not know the rules or has a special situation.

More info. I have a masters license and after speaking to the other boater found out that he did as well.

Since we should both know the rules I decided to write the original post.

I claim I was the stand on vessel and he claims he was. I am very interested in hearing more about what people think both of us should have done but please also state your opinion on who was the stand on vessel.

My purpose of this post is more about learning than proving I was right. However, in this case proving I was right would be somewhat gratifying since after I pulled into my slip he past me and said "I will deal with you later".

As always comments welcome.
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Old 07-07-2014, 15:50   #18
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

I agree. If I came across a vessel towing, I would do all I could to facilitate his passage. Rules be dammed

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Old 07-07-2014, 17:23   #19
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

1.5 knots is awfully slow and the guy is a jackass.
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Old 07-07-2014, 17:25   #20
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Since you're operating in a private marina, I don't see the Navigation rules as a real factor. It's more about the local common practice and courtesy. He didn't act very courteous with his yelling, whistling and waving. Your invitation to go to the radio was ignored. Only you know if you could have picked up the pace safely. 1 1/2 kn. is bare steerage for a vessel with a side tow and a lot of windage. He may have felt he needed a little more speed to maintain good control. He might also simply dislike sail boats, been beaten as a child, or was just having a bad day. (towing is usually not a good sign).
It sounds like you both kept your cool on the dock though..so that's a good thing.

I need to transit two opening bridges to get out to the bay. Whenever someone is towing they typically call ahead and alert the bridge tenders. We all hear the broadcast and everyone usually waits to allow the tow to pass. If he saw your stern he could have called you on the radio by name and simply asked you to pick up the pace. He could have called the marina and let everyone, that was moving, know his situation. That's what a professional would do.

All's well that ends well, though.
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Old 07-07-2014, 17:26   #21
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Something i see a lot, and don't know if happened in the OP's situation is that the way in which someone is asked to get out of the way can have a huge negative effect on the other guy's wanting to help. The whistle, and hand motion to go faster, when I thought I was proceeding at a safe speed for the situation might well have got my dander up. Usually, once that annoyance happens, a whole lot of good sense and/or politeness goes right out the window.

Rules wise, to me, I think he was overtaking, and should have stayed clear, and apparently he did. And besides, you are responsible for the welfare of your vessel: he doesn't get to say how you go about it.

And yet, motioning him by could have been a reasonable alternative, and if you pride yourself on being a polite boater, I sorta wonder why you didn't. Not that you weren't right, but that something additional was occurring, too.

Resolving the situation amicably may be a challenge.

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Old 07-07-2014, 17:35   #22
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

1.5 knots, a cross wind, and you assume he had control? No keel, probably single screw, and a tow. What did your Master license class suggest about that combination?

Granted yelling was not much of a plan, but ignoring him was not much of a plan either. He may have been a jackass and he didn't have much of a plan. He may also have been scared. If it was so crowded that going at 1.5 knots was required, safety should have been the only concern.

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But "I will deal with you later" is adolescent and dangerous.
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Old 07-07-2014, 18:32   #23
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Both vessels were the same length so it is fair to say their hull speed at idle would normally be about the same, but with added side tow... Powerboat was already using extra RPM to counter resistance

One had a 20ft boat rafted up beside him so would be crabbing a bit more requiring counter helm to opposite side meaning limited turning to that free side.

If crosswind made the leeway towards the tow side worse... then an increase in speed requires a lot more sea room to correct an unsuccessful burst of power.
(This can escalate dangerously in confined waters)

if a problen developed the vessel with raft just needed to go astern to pivot it quickly 360 by turning inside the 20ft boat to stop and realign for leeway. (Provided he had secured the rafted boat properly with tight lines and balanced springs)

That would have allowed your vessel to proceed at safe speed and the rafted vessels to practice their stopping maneuverability prior to docking.

The over reaction of the boat driver behind you only verifies his limited capabilities and seamanship.
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Old 07-07-2014, 18:35   #24
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Once again great responses.

He stopped me as I had to passed his slip on my way back to land. But once we spoke it was a quick and reasonable conversation. So no problems there. He did disagree that I was the stand on vessel.

I would like to clarify the tow since so many people are commenting on this. This was not a vessel in distress being towed. This was his secondary boat that he rigidly ties to the side of his boat on a regular basis. I assume he does that so that he can have use of it at his destination if he is at anchor with the larger boat. It is not a dinghy however.

He did not seem to be having trouble steering and there was not room to allow him to pass. I focused most of my time facing forward and not looking back since that is where most of my attention needed to be.

So there are two questions here.

The first is what actions should be taken by both boaters. For that there have been plenty of comments and I welcome more.

The second is a basic rules of the road question which is: Which vessel is the Stand on vessel and which is the Giveway? Only a few people commented on that.

Since we are both Masters and we disagreed on who was the Stand on I would be very curious to read people's answer to this second question.

I maintain I was the Stand on since he was the overtaking vessel according to rule 13, he would not be considered a vessel engaged in towing by the rules of the road, and he was not restricted in his ability to maneuver according to the rules.

At the end of the day we both safely navigated the channel.
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Old 07-07-2014, 18:56   #25
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

The "Stand on" issue is meaningless and a Red Herring as you were both in a confined marina doing close quarter maneuvers in 2 way traffic.
(what if he had encountered a similar rafted setup going outbound)?

You arrived first and had conventional rights to dock safely without interference.

All the guy had to do was to hold a few minutes outside the entrance for you to get far enough ahead to be a non-issue.

If you want to get technical .......power boat should have done a 'Securete Securite' broadcast requesting all traffic to stop inside Marina while he docks his boat and tender.

I imagine the CG, Marina office and other tenants would have laughed and said a few words to this self appointed Admiral....

For him, it was easier to blame you than his judgement.
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Old 07-07-2014, 19:09   #26
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Originally Posted by Saltysailor2 View Post

I would like to clarify the tow since so many people are commenting on this. This was not a vessel in distress being towed. This was his secondary boat that he rigidly ties to the side of his boat on a regular basis. I assume he does that so that he can have use of it at his destination if he is at anchor with the larger boat. It is not a dinghy however.
That small boat is properly called a "tender" since it is nornaly paired with the mother ship and is towed rather than carried on board.
Very common practice in those waters where fishing is popular.
FYI this yacht practice would never be considered a "Towing Vessel" under COLREGS
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Old 07-07-2014, 19:12   #27
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

I always fall back to it is each captains responsibility to do what they must in order to prevent collision. Hip tying his tender does not grant him any special rights to endanger himself and others. I'm surprised someone with a masters captain s ticket would even think that. Especially if he is encroaching on a vessel that is potentially having engine issues which could have been the case. We have lost an engine coming thru a bridge against wind and tide and steerage and forward motion were a challenge.
I get sick and tired of boaters(mostly power boaters) who think they own the ocean and have no responsibility for their wake. I will also say max speed limit in most no wake or idle zones is 5 knots. 1.5 is really really slow for a vessel without issue and not getting ready to dock.

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Old 07-07-2014, 19:14   #28
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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Something i see a lot, and don't know if happened in the OP's situation is that the way in which someone is asked to get out of the way can have a huge negative effect on the other guy's wanting to help. The whistle, and hand motion to go faster, when I thought I was proceeding at a safe speed for the situation might well have got my dander up. Usually, once that annoyance happens, a whole lot of good sense and/or politeness goes right out the window.

Rules wise, to me, I think he was overtaking, and should have stayed clear, and apparently he did. And besides, you are responsible for the welfare of your vessel: he doesn't get to say how you go about it.

And yet, motioning him by could have been a reasonable alternative, and if you pride yourself on being a polite boater, I sorta wonder why you didn't. Not that you weren't right, but that something additional was occurring, too.

Resolving the situation amicably may be a challenge.

Ann
There just wasn't room for him to pass. Having him pass me would have been the best option if it were possible.
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Old 07-07-2014, 19:18   #29
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

Pelagic...

two questions for you...where in the rules does it say the rules don't apply in marina?

and where in the rules does the description of a vessel towing get that specific?

My cut is that rule 9 applies based on the OP's OP...his words...
"Place: Main narrow channel in a marina"

And if you assume rule 9 applies..nothing relieves that guy towing from staying clear...other than just plain old "work it out"

Something rarely discussed in these "rules" threads...is that "YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO TRY AND COMMUNICATE INTENTIONS" either by sound or radio.....the rules are the last resort...not the first.
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Old 07-07-2014, 19:26   #30
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Re: Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up

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I always fall back to it is each captains responsibility to do what they must in order to prevent collision. Hip tying his tender does not grant him any special rights to endanger himself and others. I'm surprised someone with a masters captain s ticket would even think that. Especially if he is encroaching on a vessel that is potentially having engine issues which could have been the case. We have lost an engine coming thru a bridge against wind and tide and steerage and forward motion were a challenge.
I get sick and tired of boaters(mostly power boaters) who think they own the ocean and have no responsibility for their wake. I will also say max speed limit in most no wake or idle zones is 5 knots. 1.5 is really really slow for a vessel without issue and not getting ready to dock.

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Hip towing in close quarters is usually the standard.

Believe me..... powerboaters are as tired of sailboaters just as much...as far as owning the ocean...whoa that's calling the kettle black with all the "get out of my way my sails are up " types sailing these days....

5 knots in a no wake zone sounds about right...5 knots in close quarters in most marinas would probably be excessive...what is too slow is dependent on many things.
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