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View Poll Results: My reaction to such legislation on a scale of 1-5
1 - thinik it's a great idea 3 6.25%
2 - not impresseed but it wouldn't stop me going there 9 18.75%
3- total indifference 5 10.42%
4- Bad idea and I'd try to let them know 14 29.17%
5- Deeply offensive - boycott the place. 17 35.42%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17-07-2013, 13:02   #46
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Frankly, weather-wise, NZ is so far from the tropics and surrounded by such confused and turbulent seas that I wonder why any sailor in less than a well prepared and equipped sailboat could undertake to visit. Both inbound and outbound journeys expose boats to very high potential of severe adverse weather and there has been already so many boats and lives lost in the area that I will completely understand when NZ introduces very strict safety requirements on visiting boats.

NZ is NOT a So Pac destination. I think many So Pac sailors seem to skip over this unpopular fact.

b.
That is true, yet there are fewer boats that visit South Africa because the conditions and current there are challenging in the Winter especially. Despite this they don't have draconian legislation being discussed.
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Old 17-07-2013, 14:06   #47
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Frankly, weather-wise, NZ is so far from the tropics and surrounded by such confused and turbulent seas that I wonder why any sailor in less than a well prepared and equipped sailboat could undertake to visit. Both inbound and outbound journeys expose boats to very high potential of severe adverse weather and there has been already so many boats and lives lost in the area that I will completely understand when NZ introduces very strict safety requirements on visiting boats.

NZ is NOT a So Pac destination. I think many So Pac sailors seem to skip over this unpopular fact.

b.
"Unpopular fact" WTF?

As a South Pacific sailor and a three time voyager to NZed I feel competent to say that NZed is indeed a "So Pac destination". What are you on about, Barney?

And again, when the infamous "Section 21" rule was invoked back in 1994/9, the ruling was taken to the NZ Supreme court and found to be unlawful. NZed is a signatory to UN agreements that specify that visiting vessels are required to adhere to the standards of their flag country, and that NZ could not impose their rules upon those visitors. This situation still exists, so reintroducing the idea is a waste of time and angst.

As to impact upon the local maritime economy, back in '95/'95 there was indeed a big loss of revenue to the local folks, especially in the Whangerai area. Those merchants and artisans were amongst the ardent supporters of the appeal against section 21. There was no organized boycott that I was aware of then, but many cruising folks just stayed away, ourselves included. We were unwilling to meet some of the requirements imposed, particularly that of carrying a life raft... something that we had chosen to not do.

The waters surrounding NZed are indeed subject to bad conditions... just like many other cruising destinations. Tasmania, Alaska, South Africa, Vancouver Island, the North Sea... the list of such areas is long, the list of other nations which have imposed special "safety requirements" on visiting yachts is non-existent.

It is incumbent upon any prudent visiting yottie to have the necessary skills and equipment to safely make the voyage to NZed. Once arrived, it is not the place of the NZed officials to specify other materials or training or credentials to allow departure.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 17-07-2013, 15:01   #48
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Jim.
Its one thing to have guidelines to help sailors to make the right decisions but not good to have some regulations that risk put non-sailing bullies in charge.

NZ Govt money would be much better spent on creating a "Cruisers Weather Windows" web page to assist sailors in their decisions. This could also improve the safety of coastal sailors who are much less prepared than international cruisers. (Could even be sponsored by sellers of Cat 1 safety gear.)
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Old 17-07-2013, 15:12   #49
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Hi, everyone,

It is clear to me that some of the posters have not read the regs for Category 1 sailing. I tried the link Jim posted, but got an error message...5 times.

I tried posting a link I found by Googling, but it, too, came back with errors when I checked it, so if you're interested, if you Google on "Regulations for Category One Sailing", you will find them if you are diligent.

Monohulls are shown as Mo1 and multihulls as Mu1.

If you peruse the requirements bearing in mind how they relate to your own boat, you may come to understand why not everyone is enthused about applying Cat. One to his own boat. Sorry, but it's picky reading.

Ann
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Old 17-07-2013, 15:44   #50
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Please keep voting (it might help).

For those who can't get the regs try this link

Safety Regulations | Yachting New Zealand

Scroll down and click on "click here" , they'll pop up as a pdf - these are the regs an inspector would have in his hand while checking your boat.
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Old 17-07-2013, 15:46   #51
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Hi All


As I New Zealand sailor can I just point out that the garbage being spouted was by a dickhead lawyer. I think we all know that it just won't happen. They tried it once before and it fell on its ass.

The costs that are always claimed when undertaking SAR work is a con as well. Virtually all the costs are there wether or not their is a real SAR event anyway, all that happens is the guys do a real one instead of practice one.

Please don't think that all us Kiwi's are like this dickhead lawyer. Many of are boatees and do not appreciate blardy lawyers and politicians sticking their noses into the way we and others sail.

If you are ever over here drop in for a chat and a beverage or three
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:03   #52
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pirate Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Quote:
Originally Posted by NZGrant View Post
Hi All


As I New Zealand sailor can I just point out that the garbage being spouted was by a dickhead lawyer. I think we all know that it just won't happen. They tried it once before and it fell on its ass.

The costs that are always claimed when undertaking SAR work is a con as well. Virtually all the costs are there wether or not their is a real SAR event anyway, all that happens is the guys do a real one instead of practice one.

Please don't think that all us Kiwi's are like this dickhead lawyer. Many of are boatees and do not appreciate blardy lawyers and politicians sticking their noses into the way we and others sail.

If you are ever over here drop in for a chat and a beverage or three
Exactly... just like military, coast guard whatever and where ever... but its a great way to divert attention from the waste of funds in other areas''
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:07   #53
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Quote:
Originally Posted by NZGrant View Post
Hi All


As I New Zealand sailor can I just point out that the garbage being spouted was by a dickhead lawyer. I think we all know that it just won't happen. They tried it once before and it fell on its ass.

The costs that are always claimed when undertaking SAR work is a con as well. Virtually all the costs are there wether or not their is a real SAR event anyway, all that happens is the guys do a real one instead of practice one.

Please don't think that all us Kiwi's are like this dickhead lawyer. Many of are boatees and do not appreciate blardy lawyers and politicians sticking their noses into the way we and others sail.

If you are ever over here drop in for a chat and a beverage or three
Right on, Grant!

I should have pointed out that none of the many Kiwi yotties that we knew (and know) were in favour of the regs.

The main proponent was Jennie Shipley (sp?) who was minister of transport (or some such title) at the time and looking for issues to boost her political pathway to leadership. After a lot of posturing on her part, and bragging that when they had a victory in a lower court that it must have been "good law", she had little to say after the Supreme court decision.

And yes, we have had discussions with SAR pilots, and they said exactly what you have said... that they must fly a considerable number of hours each month to keep their tickets. They would MUCH rather fly real SAR missions than exercises. The costs of flying may come from different pockets, but the costs to the taxpayer are little influenced by the missions.

So, Grant, if we sail back to NZed again Ann and I will look forward to sharing a good red and a few stories, some possibly true!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 17-07-2013, 17:37   #54
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Quote:

And again, when the infamous "Section 21" rule was invoked back in 1994/9, the ruling was taken to the NZ Supreme court and found to be unlawful. NZed is a signatory to UN agreements that specify that visiting vessels are required to adhere to the standards of their flag country, and that NZ could not impose their rules upon those visitors. This situation still exists, so reintroducing the idea is a waste of time and angst.
I don't believe such a UN , more correctly IMO treaty exists per say. There is the long established principle of comity, which basically says that peaceful countries respect each others rules.

But many countries apply rules that affect leisure yachts for all countries while within their national waters , Ireland ( lifejackets) , USA ( lifejackets) ,France ( safety equipment ) , Croatia ( competency Certs ) etc etc.

Dave
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Old 17-07-2013, 18:15   #55
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
"Unpopular fact" WTF?

As a South Pacific sailor and a three time voyager to NZed I feel competent to say that NZed is indeed a "So Pac destination". What are you on about, Barney?
NZ is an Antarctic outpost in the So Pac ;-)

More seriously though:

Sailing to NZ and out is more like crossing the Vizcaya (for the EU pack, I am not sure what the US equivalent is).

Some sailors who spend too much time in between the tropics get lulled. Or else they have always been weather blind?

b.
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Old 17-07-2013, 18:27   #56
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Quote:
Originally Posted by NZGrant View Post
Hi All


As I New Zealand sailor can I just point out that the garbage being spouted was by a dickhead lawyer. I think we all know that it just won't happen. They tried it once before and it fell on its ass.

The costs that are always claimed when undertaking SAR work is a con as well. Virtually all the costs are there wether or not their is a real SAR event anyway, all that happens is the guys do a real one instead of practice one.

Please don't think that all us Kiwi's are like this dickhead lawyer. Many of are boatees and do not appreciate blardy lawyers and politicians sticking their noses into the way we and others sail.

If you are ever over here drop in for a chat and a beverage or three
Yep. That lawyer sounds like a wonnabe politician.

Kiwis nice folk. I hope September you get the Auld Mug back!

b.
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Old 17-07-2013, 19:42   #57
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels



Yes, there are people swimming down there. NZ has a fascinating position of having subtropical conditions to the north
and awesome kick but cooler conditions in the south



From the NIWA website.. A very watered down explanation of a very fascinating ecosystem that makes up New Zealand.

"New Zealand's climate is complex and varies from warm subtropical in the far north to cool temperate climates in the far south, with severe alpine conditions in the mountainous areas."


It is my dream to someday sail up to one of the northern harbors. Also, the people are awesome.

I would rethink passage to any country if there were laws in place as you describe. I say this mainly because it is a foreign port, where I am not totally familiar with my rights, far from my own home, and resources ( wow, sounds like I'm describing cruising). When we sail into any foreign port, there are risks, having a law like this in place only increases them.
Hope that made sense.

BTB
I'd trust NZ folks over a hole slew of other cruising destination countries.

? What's a squid..?



E
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Old 17-07-2013, 19:59   #58
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
well reading the 2013-2016 safety regulations doesn't seem to mention that.

dave
I am with Dave on this.

There is an item a 3.28.1 f.
f) Boats of less than 12.0 m hull length may be provided with
an inboard propulsion engine, or an outboard engine
together with permanently installed fuel supply systems
and fuel tank(s) may be used as an alternative.
Mu1,2,3

http://www.isafyouthworlds.com/tools...%5B6005%5D.pdf

And this on page 82 of the Yachting New Zealand Safety regs.

20.13 Outboard motors. Where a yacht is X X X X X
propelled by an outboard motor and
carries fuel in separate containers, such
containers shall be supplied by the fuel tank
manufacturer for that purpose and shall be
secured on deck or in a separate ventilated
compartment.

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/sites/y...16%20FINAL.pdf



So does New Zealand recognize the "f" subsection?
And BTW those 5 Xs represent that outboard motors are allowed for all 5 classes of yachts.
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Old 18-07-2013, 01:11   #59
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

Thank you to Jim and Ann Cate and NZGrant. You have summed it up perfectly, I may join you for that good red.
I am also a NZ sailor, having done thousands of offshore miles and had the opportunity of realising Cat 1 for two yachts, one of which was a yacht imported into NZ having already sailed from the US. These yachts had tens of thousands of dollars spent in order to reach Cat 1. These regs are not to be taken lightly, if your boat dosent comply, you cannot leave. Simple.
I also work in the marine industry in Whangarei and would be very surprised to see local support for this madness.
And yes, the weather can be a little challenging in winter at times, but this is our playground and we are used to it.
And to Sand Crab, sorry, but rule 20.13 clearly states Cat 1 and 2 cannot have an outboard. Check out rule 20.05.

Kim
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Old 18-07-2013, 01:49   #60
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Re: NZ and Foreign Flagged Vessels

[QUOTE=Ocean Girl;12876

? What's a squid..?



E[/QUOTE]

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