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Old 21-06-2013, 02:01   #121
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

Really? Failing to produce a clearance certificate can get you into so much trouble, the mind boggles.
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Old 21-06-2013, 02:50   #122
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Oh and on the slightly patronising comments about the NZ SAR system being a bloke in a dinghy on Wednesdays, honestly not only is that rude and insulting but it is incorrect and demonstrably so.
My apologies, I thought I had dumbed my comment down enough so even an idiot could understand it. But clearly not.

In my defence, I have had the Multihull sub-forum on ignore (plus a few others) for a while which means that I am a bit out of practice on dealing with sensitive little souls......at least the ones beginning with R's. I will try harder .
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Old 21-06-2013, 03:38   #123
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

The merits of one particular case are always difficult to ascertain from one side of the story.

However as cruising sailors we should strongly resist the ability of countries to determine the seaworthiness of vessels with foreign registration.

This system is open to abuse and this abuse is seen in many countries. Expensive surveys (where the surveyor never steps foot on the boat), the mandatory purchase of additional safety equipment, large fines, are unfortunately occurring more frequently, to well found cruising boats.


The old requirement of meeting the safety standards and laws of the country of registration is steadily becoming eroded.

I think the cruising community should resist this change.
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Old 21-06-2013, 03:52   #124
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The merits of one particular case are always difficult to ascertain from one side of the story.

However as cruising sailors we should strongly resist the ability of countries to determine the seaworthiness of vessels with foreign registration.

This system is open to abuse and this abuse is seen in many countries. Expensive surveys (where the surveyor never steps foot on the boat), the mandatory purchase of additional safety equipment, large fines, are unfortunately occurring more frequently, to well found cruising boats.


The old requirement of meeting the safety standards and laws of the country of registration is steadily becoming eroded.

I think the cruising community should resist this change.
Facts and specific instances would be nice instead of generalisations, rumour and insinuations.
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Old 21-06-2013, 03:58   #125
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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The old requirement of meeting the safety standards and laws of the country of registration is steadily becoming eroded.

I think the cruising community should resist this change.
This is such a naive statement that it beggars belief. Do you really believe that any foreign flagged recreational vessel adheres to country of registration safety requirements when overseas? This is why we have port and flag state inspections, so vessels away from the oversight of CoR don't litter our coastlines with the detritus of their indigence and stupidity.
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Old 21-06-2013, 04:17   #126
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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The old requirement of meeting the safety standards and laws of the country of registration is steadily becoming eroded.

I think the cruising community should resist this change.
Agreed. I think your first paragraph proves that your point is well founded, and anything other than naive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This system is open to abuse and this abuse is seen in many countries. Expensive surveys (where the surveyor never steps foot on the boat), the mandatory purchase of additional safety equipment, large fines, are unfortunately occurring more frequently, to well found cruising boats.
And the beginning, the end and the morale of this story is.......

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The merits of one particular case are always difficult to ascertain from one side of the story.
Looking at the guys boat, reading a few bits and pieces I would point and shout that will never make it across an ocean........

but there is the rub, He did.

My grandma always use to say it takes all kinds, live and let live and there is always something you can learn from a person. Hope he is safe, and his adventure has a happy ending.

As for bashing New Zealand, I live in a country where it's considered a national pastime. Once you have drunk NZ wine though , sailed on a NZ designed/built boat, eaten NZ lamb cutlets and seen or spent any time in their ridiculously beautiful country you begin to realise why we feel the need to give them a bit of cheek every now and then
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Old 21-06-2013, 04:52   #127
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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This is such a naive statement that it beggars belief. Do you really believe that any foreign flagged recreational vessel adheres to country of registration safety requirements when overseas?
It is standard practice for most countries.
Conforming to all the laws required for locally registered boats would be totally impractical when transiting many countries as many long distance crusing boats do.

A boat that conforms to the safety requirements of their flag is accepted. The boat may still be inspected but it is accepted as seaworthy if it meets the safety standards of they flag flown.

For example local boats registered in Portugal are required to carry 6 parachute, 4 red, and 2 smoke flares.
Your cor requirements are likely to be different, conforming to your flags requirements is generally accepted by most countries.

This is only sensible. Carrying all the safety requirements to meet the local demands of all countries visited, particularly when the equipment may need to approved and/or inspected by a different authorising body is not practical.
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Old 21-06-2013, 07:28   #128
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by NoTies View Post
This is such a naive statement that it beggars belief. Do you really believe that any foreign flagged recreational vessel adheres to country of registration safety requirements when overseas? This is why we have port and flag state inspections, so vessels away from the oversight of CoR don't litter our coastlines with the detritus of their indigence and stupidity.

This statement above is typical of nanny state logic and reasoning.

Perhaps NZ should just certify that a yacht leaving it's shores is eligible for national SAR. If the yacht is found substandard the skipper simply signs a statement acknowledging that NZ will not send SAR if there is a problem.

IMHO, the good men of NZ will then set up a volunteer SAR to rescue those hapless mariners whose yachts the national SAR have deemed substandard.
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Old 21-06-2013, 10:39   #129
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by noelex 77
The merits of one particular case are always difficult to ascertain from one side of the story.

However as cruising sailors we should strongly resist the ability of countries to determine the seaworthiness of vessels with foreign registration.
As a general case yes, we should, however the situation has always been that national territories have the power to intervene, but typical the rule of comity are respected.

Quote:
This system is open to abuse and this abuse is seen in many countries. Expensive surveys (where the surveyor never steps foot on the boat), the mandatory purchase of additional safety equipment, large fines, are unfortunately occurring more frequently, to well found cruising boats.
Ive not seen such "abuse", in fact in the vast majority of cases port officials do not get involved in lesiure vessel oversight, even when local laws allow them to do do. france is a case in point.

Quote:
The old requirement of meeting the safety standards and laws of the country of registration is steadily becoming eroded.
There never was such a requirement. firstly few countries mandate that non-commercial vessels must apply their flag state safety standards, Most only apply such rules to large ( over 24m) vessels and commercial boats.

What we are seeing is a response to a activity that has grown hugely in many countries. Some countries or areas have seen massive growth in sailing as a leisure activity , NZ is one of those. Its entirely to be expected that therefore we are above the "parapit" and subject to increasing scrutiny. Years ago sailing , especially ocean sailing was a sport practised by an odd few and hence largely ignored by the authorities.

Today , due to rising affluence, cheaper boats and ordinary boats capable of trans ocean journeys , we are seeing far more of such activity , along with huge growth in weekend warriors, and all those in between. Interest by the authorities hecne has grown, opportunities to make money have increased and its inevitable that certain freedoms will be eroded as we've become "an industry".

The sad thing about all this , is that if one inspects these national standards and requirements, they usually specify things that the vast majority of blue water boats will have anyway . hence opposition to such schemes is really theoretical "big brother" style opposition rather then any real issue.

dave
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Old 21-06-2013, 11:16   #130
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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The sad thing about all this , is that if one inspects these national standards and requirements, they usually specify things that the vast majority of blue water boats will have anyway . hence opposition to such schemes is really theoretical "big brother" style opposition rather then any real issue. dave
??????? Explain this to the OP who is sitting in the harbor. The stainless chain plate bolt excuse applies to just about every sailboat on the planet.
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Old 21-06-2013, 11:20   #131
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

It would be ripe for abuse if some country can require stuff before you leave.
I remember when in Bermuda they charged an 'exit fee'. That is just bogus.
If the standards of some country were not acceptable, then you simply don't allow them IN to yours. You can't allow them IN, and then not let them OUT without paying unchallengeable and monopolistic requirements.

The freedom of the sea is one rather giant myth. Cruisers are saddled with more rules and laws then anyone. This checking in/out everywhere you go is just so NOT freedom.

In regards to this case, the boat is probably in poor shape, maybe the official was trying to simply delay invoking some official process while the weather was so bad?
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Old 21-06-2013, 11:28   #132
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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??????? Explain this to the OP who is sitting in the harbor. The stainless chain plate bolt excuse applies to just about every sailboat on the planet.
yes but this power to detain vessels has existed for decades, its nothing new, only that the Internet now informs us when its applied half way around the world.

Authorities have been detaining such vessels for years.

No doubt the OP has already cleared out an gone .
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Old 21-06-2013, 11:33   #133
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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The freedom of the sea is one rather giant myth. Cruisers are saddled with more rules and laws then anyone. This checking in/out everywhere you go is just so NOT freedom.
They are , how so. you mean since the days of the British Empire , when as my grandfather used to say , you could travel as you liked around the world without as much as a "by your leave" ( handle bar moustache and a good stiff upper lip seemed also to be required) . He always neglected to mention the 40 RN gun boats on standby to subdue any fuzzy wuzzy bad behaviour ( like actually running their own country etc).

But absolutely we should be able to sail where we like how we like, sure , yes really , right-on.
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Old 21-06-2013, 12:05   #134
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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The sad thing about all this , is that if one inspects these national standards and requirements, they usually specify things that the vast majority of blue water boats will have anyway . hence opposition to such schemes is really theoretical "big brother" style opposition rather then any real issue.

dave
These are New Zealand requirements. (Warning this is 148 pages)
http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/sites/y...16%20FINAL.pdf

I wonder how many foreign flagged vessels conform to all these Cat 1 requirements?
Even if your boat does comply, are you really advocating that CF should be supporting inspection and proof of compliance?
Yachts that have sailed safely from foreign countries.

What do you suggest for those yachts that cannot prove fundamental requirements such as, for example, proof of stability?

I am surprised any CF members are giving even tacit support for such measures.

Cruising in the worlds oceans is one of the last great freedoms, lets work to keep so, rather than advocating a path of additional government control.
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Old 21-06-2013, 12:15   #135
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

A huge section of that document is really restating the offshore racing regulations and safety requirements , these already are the reality for offshore racers and they compley all over teh world.

the rest is no more onerous than European RCD requirements or ABYC.

dave
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