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Old 04-07-2013, 18:09   #511
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Might be worth pointing out that the NZ maritime regulations have reduced boating fatalities by 50% over the last few years. Arguing that sensible yachtsmen should stand in opposition to their attempts to reduce deaths is to suggest that we should favor a resumption of the prior rate of fatalities.

I'm still waiting to hear Noelex's views on whether the NZ rules are 'bad laws'.
I did give amore detailed answer in post 491, but yes I think the laws pertaining to offshore sailors are "bad" laws.
New Zealand marine accident statistics here:
http://www.watersafety.org.nz/assets...-2007-2011.pdf

These show there has been a 50% reduction in general drowing deaths over the last 6 years, but they also show that there has only been one drowning death attributed to "offshore sailing" In The period 2007-2011 (I could not find any more recent information)
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Old 04-07-2013, 18:13   #512
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Goboatingnow. How on earth did you get all that out of our comments? We are not justifying Sean's behaviour, just saying freedom is worth something.

Democracies with opposition parties and all the associated weaknesses are better than dictatorships as far as freedom goes. Without opposition many officials become mini dictators.
I simply do not except the premise that sailors are under some sort of threat of bureaucracy, in fact in many areas sailors has less paperwork to deal with then ever before. Look at the experience in the EU, years ago I had to check in and out everywhere , now I have to do nothing.

Nor do I see , as a general statement " officials becoming mini dictators" , certainly no more them ever was and in many cases much less so as sailing has become more popular and officials get to understand it.

In this case , based on the information we have to hand , the NZ. Authorities acted reasonably , compassionately and appropriately.

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Old 04-07-2013, 18:13   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post

I did give amore detailed answer in post 491, but yes I think they are "bad" laws.
New Zealand marine accident statistics here:
http://www.watersafety.org.nz/assets...-2007-2011.pdf

These show there has been a 50% reduction in general drowing deaths over the last 6 years, but they also show that there has only been one drowning death attributed to "offshore sailing" In The period 2007-2011 (I could not find any more recent information)
Imagine how many more offshore sailing deaths there might have been if NZ didn't care.
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Old 04-07-2013, 18:22   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post

I did give amore detailed answer in post 491, but yes I think them laws pertaing to offshore sailors are "bad" laws.
New Zealand marine accident statistics here:
http://www.watersafety.org.nz/assets...-2007-2011.pdf

These show there has been a 50% reduction in general drowing deaths over the last 6 years, but they also show that there has only been one drowning death attributed to "offshore sailing" In The period 2007-2011 (I could not find any more recent information)
You must also consider the amount of sailers that now don't waste there time going to NZ and weather events over that time. I can't find that info, anyone?
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Old 04-07-2013, 18:41   #515
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You must also consider the amount of sailers that now don't waste there time going to NZ and weather events over that time. I can't find that info, anyone?
Where's the evidence of that

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Old 04-07-2013, 18:41   #516
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

Customs requirements taken from New Zealand Customs Service : Yacht & small craft departure

Yacht & small craft departure

Page Content
A small craft is one whose primary role is recreation and which is not for commercial use or hire – regardless of its length or tonnage.
Notice of departure


If you intend leaving New Zealand, you should let the New Zealand Customs Service know at least 72 hours before your departure.
You can do this by using the Departure of yachts and pleasure craft – Advance information sheet (NZCS 345).
Customs will provide you with a Departure of Yachts and Small Craft Information Pack which contains all the official documents you will need to gain your Certificate of clearance (small craft) (Form C3B).
Certificate of clearance


Yachts and small craft may not depart from any Customs place to a point outside New Zealand, unless a Certificate of Clearance has been granted. Departing from a port of entry

All craft leaving New Zealand waters must depart from a Customs port of entry. A Customs officer will attend at the agreed time and place of departure.
Once Customs and Immigration formalities have been completed, the owner/master will be issued a Certificate of Clearance. The craft will then be required to leave New Zealand waters immediately and proceed to its next destination.
If for some unforeseen reason you are unable to leave New Zealand waters after you have been issued with your Certificate of Clearance – perhaps there is a life-threatening situation or serious safety issue – then you must immediately advise the New Zealand Customs Service on 0800 428 786, or report to a Police officer.
Duty-free stores

Duty-free stores are goods which may, under certain conditions, be taken out of New Zealand, free of Customs duty.
Prior to departure, you can arrange for your duty-free allowances through a duty-free business, which must submit a Requisition for ships stores (NZCS 325) form to the New Zealand Customs Service for approval. The completed form should be emailed to ships.stores@customs.govt.nz no later than 12 hours prior to departure. Any duty-free supplies purchased, along with their receipts, must be available for inspection by a Customs officer at the time of your departure.
Ship stores are any goods (including tobacco and alcohol) for use or consumption on board a craft by passengers or crew, or for the service of a craft.

Return of firearms

If any firearms were detained on your arrival, contact the New Zealand Police to arrange for them to be delivered to your vessel prior to your departure. Make sure you allow sufficient time for the firearm(s) to be transported to your port of departure, particularly if this is different from your port of arrival.

To contact the New Zealand Police, phone +64 9 302 6400 between 7:00am and 4:30pm Monday to Friday, and ask for the Arms officer.
For further information regarding New Zealand Customs Service formalities for yachts and small craft see Fact Sheet 33 or contact:
New Zealand Customs Service
Marine Section
PO Box 29, Shortland Street
Auckland 1140

Phone: +64 9 307 6516
Fax: +64 9 359 6692
Email: yachts@customs.govt.nz
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Old 04-07-2013, 18:50   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

Where's the evidence of that

Dave
My point exactly nolex 77 put up the PDF but how are the stats collated have they taken into account weather events and amount of cruisers. I would say not the stats only take into account the event.
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Old 04-07-2013, 18:51   #518
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That long post , from tern marine, of course is not relevant to this thread. The OP has had his boat detained under maritime safety rules and has also had a compromise agreement reached with immigration as a result of visa overstay

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Old 04-07-2013, 18:52   #519
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My point exactly nolex 77 put up the PDF but how are the stats collated have they taken into account weather events and amount of cruisers. I would say not the stats only take into account the event.
Yes but where is your evidence that cruisers arnt visiting NZ due to its regulations

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Old 04-07-2013, 18:57   #520
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Imagine how many more offshore sailing deaths there might have been if NZ didn't care.
It is always difficult to speculate. 1 death over four years does not suggest to me that there is need for greater legislation. There are many times when these type of laws are counterproductive.

I take the view that generally the skipper is in the best position to decide what safety equipment will most benefit the vessel. Money spent on manditory inspections and reports, or duplicated safety equipment could often be spent much more wisely. Items like AIS are not covered by the regulations despite most crusing sailors indicating they are of genuine benefit to safety. The sad truth is most cruising sailors operate on a strict budget. Mandatory inspections, or equipment means there is less money for jobs like replacing the rigging which may be important, but is not on the countries safety inspection list.

There are examples where a countries laws are directly counterproductive. For example many crusing sailors sugest removing and selling your liferaft before visiting France. If your country of registration does not mandate a liferaft France cannot insist you have one, but if your vessel is equipped with one they can insist it certified and inspected.

There are other effects, sailors forced to leave in unfavourable conditions, or sail to undesirable ports for mandatory inspections, or certificates.

These sort of consequences are, unfortunately, inevitable for the long distance cruising sailor, but I am surprised that some CF members give these measures any support.
In a gathering of cruising sailors you would be keel hauled for such suggestions.

Especially when the regulations seem to do nothing to prevent people attempting to cross the Tasman in a kayak without a support vessel.
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Old 04-07-2013, 19:30   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post

It is always difficult to speculate. 1 death over four years does not suggest to me that there is need for greater legislation. There are many times when these type of laws are counterproductive.

I take the view that generally the skipper is in the best position to decide what safety equipment will most benefit the vessel. Money spent on manditory inspections and reports, or duplicated safety equipment could often be spent much more wisely. Items like AIS are not covered by the regulations despite most crusing sailors indicating they are of genuine benefit to safety. The sad truth is most cruising sailors operate on a strict budget. Mandatory inspections, or equipment means there is less money for jobs like replacing the rigging which may be important, but is not on the countries safety inspection list.

There are examples where a countries laws are directly counterproductive. For example many crusing sailors sugest removing and selling your liferaft before visiting France. If your country of registration does not mandate a liferaft France cannot insist you have one, but if your vessel is equipped with one they can insist it certified and inspected.

There are other effects, sailors forced to leave in unfavourable conditions, or sail to undesirable ports for mandatory inspections, or certificates.

These sort of consequences are, unfortunately, inevitable for the long distance cruising sailor, but I am surprised that some CF members give these measures any support.
In a gathering of cruising sailors you would be keel hauled for such suggestions.

Especially when the regulations seem to do nothing to prevent people attempting to cross the Tasman in a kayak without a support vessel.
The kayak started from Oz so not subject to NZ law so strawman argument. The legislation has been in place for years so may well have had a beneficial effect on bluewater fatalities. But I'm sure you won't see it that way.
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Old 04-07-2013, 19:35   #522
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Yes but where is your evidence that cruisers arnt visiting NZ due to its regulations

Dave
I don't think he meant due to regs. Fewer boats are visiting NZ because of the law changes and excellent facilities in Fiji. They refit there and fly to NZ, far cheaper in the long run.
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Old 04-07-2013, 19:36   #523
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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post

It is always difficult to speculate. 1 death over four years does not suggest to me that there is need for greater legislation. There are many times when these type of laws are counterproductive.

I take the view that generally the skipper is in the best position to decide what safety equipment will most benefit the vessel. Money spent on manditory inspections and reports, or duplicated safety equipment could often be spent much more wisely. Items like AIS are not covered by the regulations despite most crusing sailors indicating they are of genuine benefit to safety. The sad truth is most cruising sailors operate on a strict budget. Mandatory inspections, or equipment means there is less money for jobs like replacing the rigging which may be important, but is not on the countries safety inspection list.

There are examples where a countries laws are directly counterproductive. For example many crusing sailors sugest removing and selling your liferaft before visiting France. If your country of registration does not mandate a liferaft France cannot insist you have one, but if your vessel is equipped with one they can insist it certified and inspected.

There are other effects, sailors forced to leave in unfavourable conditions, or sail to undesirable ports for mandatory inspections, or certificates.

These sort of consequences are, unfortunately, inevitable for the long distance cruising sailor, but I am surprised that some CF members give these measures any support.
In a gathering of cruising sailors you would be keel hauled for such suggestions.

Especially when the regulations seem to do nothing to prevent people attempting to cross the Tasman in a kayak without a support vessel.
I really think this is being over-egged. France applies the rules of comity like most other nations as does NZ.

This whole area of mandatory safety equipment is really a non starter are is not germane to the OPs position. It has already been establish that NZ yacht safety rules do not apply.

However all over the world , powers are handed to various officials that allow, in their opinion , them to prevent vessels from sailing where there is a manifest treat to the safety of the vessel or crew.

Furthermore in the case of immigration issues , exceedingly extensive powers are granted to such officials to resolve such issues

It does now seem that the OP ran foul of his visa stay limits and the requirement to bring his vessel up to an agreed standard was reached as a mutual agreement to allow him to leave with his yacht.

I mean imagine of he left on a demand from immigration on a manifestly unsafe yacht , that then sank and he drowned , I suspect the next of kin would have a nice lawsuit against the authorities.

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Old 04-07-2013, 19:40   #524
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All the kneejerk reactionary people on here dissing NZ fail to realise or accept that it is the cheapest country to check in to (free) and has the most lax cruising regulations (none) than anywhere else in the SP. But carry on, keep looking for the conspiracy.
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Old 04-07-2013, 19:43   #525
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Goboatingnow. How on earth did you get all that out of our comments? We are not justifying Sean's behaviour, just saying freedom is worth something.

Democracies with opposition parties and all the associated weaknesses are better than dictatorships as far as freedom goes. Without opposition many officials become mini dictators.
Freedom to do what? Off yourself while endangering others? I'm waiting to hear someone step forward and say that trying to enforce minimal safety standards and basic seamanship is somehow a bad thing. So far, nothing but hand waving about standing up to imagined tyranny. genuinely bizarre.
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