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Old 04-07-2013, 14:22   #496
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by NoTies View Post
Are you saying we should unconditionally support a CF member even if they are shown to have broken the laws of a sovereign nation? Just trying to get a handle on the moral standards of this site.
I am saying we should be careful what we say on public forum. Google is very powerful and CF threads show prominently in any search of sailing related topics. Public officials use the Internet as well. There is no requirement to be registered to read these threads, they are in the public domain.

Statements like the above are unhelpful and disappointing.
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Old 04-07-2013, 14:24   #497
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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G'Day all,

After struggling through the rhetoric in this thread I am left with the strong impression that:

The OP definitely did not comply with the terms of his visa as issued.

From reading the document that he posted (rather foolishly, I think) it appears that he, when confronted by Immigration about the overstaying, claimed that he couldn't leave because his boat was not seaworthy. This is a rather common ploy used by unscrupulous yotties to extend visa stays, and is a practice that reflects poorly upon all the rest of us.

At some point, the NZ officials said, OK, we will get a professional evaluation of the condition of your yacht. If it is ok, then you have a week to get gone, If it is not ok, then you have a period of time to make it good, and then you have a week to get gone.

If the yacht can not be so repaired, or if you can not pay for the repairs to be done by others, then you must leave by some other means.

In my opinion the Kiwis have acted properly here, and with considerable forbearance. The OP, I suspect, was using the internet to muddy the waters, hoping that some sort of influence would be exerted on the Kiwis to delay or remove the threat of deportation.

And for those who so vehemently declare their intention to never visit this unlovely, cold and dictatorial country... well, ok, don't go there. Why do you think that we care?

Cheers,

Jim (who spent three lovely summers cruising this fascinating country)
Well said.
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Old 04-07-2013, 14:43   #498
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
There's almost an Orwellian Humor in the whole situation. Can't leave, can't stay, must be arrested, no, deported, or you can fix the boat and then leave with it, or leave now if it doesn't need fixing...Oh, right, it might not, someone will have to decide that...although you can't leave with it because it isn't...

Sounds like one of those cheap horror movies with some vacationers taking a turn down the wrong road in the deep south woods in the US.

I'd love to get the full unabridged version once it is over.
Kafka rather than Orwell...

KAFKAESQUE: of, relating to, or suggestive of Franz Kafka or his writings; especially : having a nightmarishly complex, bizarre, or illogical quality <Kafkaesque bureaucratic delays>

This tale of woe as presented by the OP is appropriately timed for the birthday of Franz Kafka - July 3rd - and reminiscent Kafka's novel "The Trial".

To refresh memories: "The Trial" is a story of a man arrested and prosecuted by a remote, inaccessible authority, with the nature of his crime revealed neither to him nor to the reader. (And that's us, to belabor the point.)

As for me.... If I was in NZ, I'd like to invite the Immigration chap for a beer or two at the pub and get HIS side of the story.
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Old 04-07-2013, 14:46   #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post

I am saying we should be careful what we say on public forum. Google is very powerful and CF threads show prominently in any search of sailing related topics. Public officials use the Internet as well. There is no requirement to be registered to read these threads, they are in the public domain.

Statements like the above are unhelpful and disappointing.
Maybe tweak the nose of the OP instead of those you disagree with. He is the one who was looking for sympathy but.not telling he whole story. The wording of your posts suggests you are using your moderator status to push your own barrow here.
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Old 04-07-2013, 15:09   #500
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

It is not difficult for a foreign yacht owner to extend their NZ visa past the initial period, for reasons of maintenance, or leaving the boat in NZ while they go home for personal / business reasons, in my experience the officials will go out of their way as long as they see the application as legitimate.
Also there many foreign sailors who have arrived in NZ by yacht during a circumnavigation who are now citizens or have residency because they found it a friendly and pleasant place to live.
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Old 04-07-2013, 15:49   #501
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Have you ever been to NZ? and if so, did they piss in your Cheerios?

(...)
Yes, we have. We lived there for a time.

They did not.

b.
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:12   #502
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

I'm with Noelex77 in that we should be watchful that the office-bound know-alls don't try to impose their personal standards on the outdoor types.
In NZ politics there is a continuous battle between bureaucracy and freedom. The battle usually results in a reasonable truce.
I suspect the official in Sean's case is being quite reasonably.
However if cruisers became pacifists in these matters both the inspectors and the cruisers would be over-run by red tape created by some office clerks who've never cruised or owned a boat.
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:15   #503
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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They did not.

b.
Perhaps worth returning..........
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:17   #504
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I am saying we should be careful what we say on public forum. Google is very powerful and CF threads show prominently in any search of sailing related topics. Public officials use the Internet as well. There is no requirement to be registered to read these threads, they are in the public domain.

Statements like the above are unhelpful and disappointing.
If CF trying to protect OP from himself, then perhaps suspend his membership?
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:38   #505
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

It took an American yacht owner who took the NZ authorities to court when the marine bureaucrats attempted to make "all" departing yachts / boats comply with the Category one rules changed to only have it apply to NZ registered yachts. As far as I know the law change was only put in obeyance. Foreign yachties and all NZ yachting businesses have him to thank as the end result had it been enacted would have a huge reduction in visiting yachts and the death of the foreign yacht service industry.
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:42   #506
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

This is such a simple case, yet those with an axe to grind have taken sides. He is an overstayer who has broken our clear immigration rules. He has brought it all upon himself by his attitude remember he is a rebel.

For those that don't want to come to New Zealand fantastic, we don't need you but For those that do want to come this guy and his freeloading friends are ruining it for you.
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:45   #507
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Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
I'm with Noelex77 in that we should be watchful that the office-bound know-alls don't try to impose their personal standards on the outdoor types.
In NZ politics there is a continuous battle between bureaucracy and freedom. The battle usually results in a reasonable truce.
I suspect the official in Sean's case is being quite reasonably.
However if cruisers became pacifists in these matters both the inspectors and the cruisers would be over-run by red tape created by some office clerks who've never cruised or owned a boat.
This and Noelex claims are quite frankly nonsense ,

Lets deal with a few points

(A) officials who would bother reading this thread, would simply read a barrage of opinions , half truths ,personal view points and semi political rants. Nothing here will add or subtract from the OPs fate.

(b) you and some others seem to peddle an idea that we shouldn't agree with the authorities , as in doing so we are somehow providing " succour to the enemy " , yet many sailors here disagree with your point of view and agree with the principles being applied. Stop ignoring that fact


(C) I for one have little time with this " freedom of the seas" nonsense that is peddled by some , as some sort of romantic wanders charter . The fact is in a modern world we must increasingly be compliant and knowledgeable of these rules. The colonial age has passed.

Having said that, do not play to unnecessary fears. There are very few rules that apply to sailing , few countries impose any serious obligations on cruisers or their boats. Some that do , generally police them in a very fair , even cursory fashion.

Furthermore an examination of many of these codes show that they are not draconian , most require equipment that most competent yachts carry , usually well more then these minimums require.

I see no merit , in a sort of utopian mis-vision that sailors should be allowed to go about in a bathtub, powered by a bed sheet. Then funnily when they get into trouble , huge quantities of public money, time and effort is expended saving their sorry asses from them selves.

We have a responsibility to clean up and maintain a clean act ,

Freedom is not a excuse to freeload.

Dave
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:51   #508
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

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Originally Posted by deepblueln View Post
I'm no immigration expert, so I've a question for the legal eagles out there:
If he has overstayed his visa then Immigration would want him out, and quickly. But, if his boat, his apparent primary means of leaving, seems unseaworthy, then isn't it in THEIR best interest to make sure he clears up the issues and sails on?
I am wondering what the alternative is --- if they put him on the next plane to anywhere, aren't they then stuck with a supposedly decrepit boat (which now has no one around to care for it at all) stuck in their marina, or growing mold in a storage yard? What happens when it sinks/catches fire/breaks lines and drifts into something important?
OTOH, if they just put him back aboard, throw off the lines, and give him a shove, he's gone but what if he gets into trouble? If the boat is as unseaworthy as some think, it heads out into poor conditions, sinks out from under him, now NZ rescue services come and scoop him out ... and now he's stuck in NZ again. His home, possessions, everything have vanished; he has nowhere to go and no way to pay for it. So that doesn't seem like the ideal outcome, for them, either.
Like I said, don't know the legal details, but just wondering if perhaps Immigration might be looking after their own interests beyond just getting him off their territory ASAP.
With no EPIRB, SSB radio unlikely they would just scoop him up. another statistic missing at sea.
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:24   #509
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

Might be worth pointing out that the NZ maritime regulations have reduced boating fatalities by 50% over the last few years. Arguing that sensible yachtsmen should stand in opposition to their attempts to reduce deaths is to suggest that we should favor a resumption of the prior rate of fatalities.

I'm still waiting to hear Noelex's views on whether the NZ rules are 'bad laws'.
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:38   #510
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Re: New Zealand Immigration Officer Making Wild Claims

Goboatingnow. How on earth did you get all that out of our comments? We are not justifying Sean's behaviour, just saying freedom is worth something.

Democracies with opposition parties and all the associated weaknesses are better than dictatorships as far as freedom goes. Without opposition many officials become mini dictators.
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