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Old 07-12-2014, 08:06   #1
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New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

The new EU Schengan Touring Visa



In mid 2015 the EU is looking at approving new Visa laws.
Its time now to look at the proposed provisions carefully and if you have an interest make representations to ensure the laws are passed.

If the law is passed it will not come into effect for 6 further months. It may mean your EU trips timing is important.


The new EU Schengan Touring Visa will be very good IF its approved. But we will still be in a mess... because you can't do a Atlantic to Med curciut (ie there and back) with only 1 year in the EU.
Say you leave north America, or the Caribbean in June to the Med, do it for a year, you still cant leave the Canary Islands till the November of the next year.

You still need to spend 5 months in non-Shengan areas, many of which are Muslim and may not be everyones cop of tea in this current geo-political situation.

But wait! There may be some good news in the detail so read on!

Quote:
- To establish a Touring Visa. This new type of Visa will allow legitimate non-EU nationals entering the Schengen area to circulate for up to 1 year in this zone (without staying in one Member State for more than 90 days in any 180-day period), with the possibility of an extension for up to two years (provided that the applicant does not stay for more than 90 days in any 180-day period in the same Member State). This would for instance, apply to live-performing artists who tour the Schengen area for a prolonged period, but also to individual travellers, such as tourists, researchers and students who wish to spend more time in Europe.
Ok now read this one carefully
Quote:
– establishing a new type of visa (‘touring visa’) for an intended stay in two or more Member States lasting more than 90 days but no more than 1 year (with the possibility of extension up to 2 years), provided that the applicant does not intend to stay for more than 90 days in any 180-day period in the same Member State
An extension Up to 2 years!!!

Quote:
he IA considered two regulatory options.
One of the options, a new type of authorisation with a view to an intended stay in the Schengen area lasting more than 90 days but no more than 360 days was envisaged ‘only’ for a limited group of third-country nationals: artists (or sportsmen), culture professionals and their crew members employed by reliable and acknowledged live performing companies or organisations and core family members travelling with them. Limiting the beneficiaries to this group was based on the fact that they seem to be the main group of third-country nationals affected by the current legislative gap.
Another policy option envisaged a similar authorisation not just for that specific category of third-country nationals, but for all third-country nationals (i.e. ‘individual’ travellers, e.g. tourists, researchers, students, business people). Since the problem is due to a legislative gap between the Schengen acquis on short stays in the Schengen area and the legislation on admission of third-country nationals for stays longer than 90 days on the territory of a Member State, a non-regulatory policy option was not developed.
The IA showed14 that the lack of an authorisation allowing travellers to stay more than 90 days in any 180-day period in the Schengen area results in a considerable economic loss to the EU. According to the study supporting the IA, the number of potential beneficiaries of the new authorisation is rather limited. Implementation of the first option might concern approximately 60000 applicants, while the second option might double the number of potential applicants. These are rather small numbers, bearing in mind that there were more than 15 million ‘Schengen’ visa applications in 2012 and the number of applications is rising steadily.
However, these travellers are considered to be ‘big spenders’ and therefore likely to generate considerable revenue and to boost economic activity in the EU, not least because they stay longer in the Schengen area. The first option could lead to an estimated EUR 500 million in additional income to the Schengen area per year. The economic impact of the other option is estimated at around EUR 1 billion. In both options, the economic gain would be due to the spending of ‘new’ travellers attracted by a new opportunity to stay longer in the Schengen area without using cumbersome ‘alternatives’ on the borderlines of legality, such as obtaining LTV visas
Quote:
proof that they have sickness insurance for all risks normally covered for nationals of the Member States to be visited.

6. The possession of sufficient means of subsistence and a stable economic situation shall be demonstrated by means of salary slips or bank statements covering a period of 12 months prior to the date of the application, and/or supporting documents that demonstrate that applicants will benefit from or will acquire sufficient financial means lawfully during their stay.
Quote:
The touring visa shall allow for multiple entries to the territory of all Member States, without prejudice to paragraph 5.
3. The length of authorised stay shall be decided on the basis of a thorough examination of the application. The length of authorised stay shall not exceed one year, but it can be extended for up to a further year in accordance with Article 8.
Quote:
When applying for an extension, applicants shall prove that they continue to fulfil the entry and visa issuing conditions and to comply with the requirement not to stay for more than 90 days in any 180-day period in the territory of a single Member State.
9. During the examination of an application for an extension, the competent authority may in justified cases call applicants for an interview and request additional documents.
10. An extension shall not exceed one year, and the overall length of an authorised stay, that is, the length of the initially authorised stay and its extension, shall not exceed two years.
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs...ng_visa_en.pdf


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Old 08-12-2014, 02:22   #2
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengen Europe

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
– establishing a new type of visa (‘touring visa’) for an intended stay in two or more Member States lasting more than 90 days but no more than 1 year (with the possibility of extension up to 2 years), provided that the applicant does not intend to stay for more than 90 days in any 180-day period in the same Member State
Interesting.

But this makes me wonder. If the rule is "no more than 90 days out of 180 per country", how do they intend to monitor compliance?
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:06   #3
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengen Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Interesting.

But this makes me wonder. If the rule is "no more than 90 days out of 180 per country", how do they intend to monitor compliance?
Many Schengen countries want you to check in when you go from one Schengen country to the other on a yacht. I know this contradicts the idea of "no borders", but it is like that.

Last summer, I sailed for four months between 8 Schengen countries. I am a non-European citizen but sailing a UK-flagged boat.

In the Netherlands, in Ijmuiden, where I arrived from Belgium, there was a notice in the harbormaster's office that any boat with non-EU citizens on board arriving even from another Schengen country needs to file a report and put it in the box. I dutifully did so, and was surprised when at 08:00 the next morning two armed Dutch border guards appeared at my EU-flagged boat to check passports. Even though there is theoretically no border between Netherlands and Belgium. They were extremely friendly, there were no problems, but they asked a lot of questions and filled out a long form.

In Sweden, there is apparently also a rule about checking in if there are non-EU citizens on board. I never did it and no one asked any questions.

In Germany, I was boarded unprovoked by a whole team of coast guards, and what they were interested in was passports. Again, very friendly, no problems, but the check was thorough.

In Helgoland, I also got an early morning visit from Customs, who checked all of the boat papers thoroughly, and while pretending to be friendly, asked a lot of questions intended to provoke the revelation of a violation, including how long I had been in the Schengen zone (but they took my word for it and didn't check my passport stamps, at least), how much cash we had on board, etc., etc., etc.

So, I guess they can easily catch you if you overstay the 90 days in any one country.


Note well -- there is a confusing and little-known exception to the old 90-out-of-180 days Schengen rule (which apparently remains in force subject to this visa). A number of European countries have bilateral treaties with the U.S., Canada, and/or the Antipodean countries, which remain in force despite Schengen. Among these France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and Poland; maybe others. In Sweden -- confirmed by a Swedish embassy in correspondence with me -- they don't care about time spent in other Schengen countries, only in Nordic countries. So you could spend 90 days in France, Netherlands, and Germany, then sail across and spend another 90 days in Denmark and Sweden, and you are legal as far as the Swedes are concerned. It seems -- but the German embassy did not confirm -- that the same is true in Germany versus any other Schengen country. And in France versus any other Schengen country. In France, Americans can apparently stay for 180 days out of 365, BUT don't do that and then go to Switzerland -- where they don't recognize the French exception and will nail you for overstaying Schengen.

I think this regime makes a chaos out of the Schengen system, so I bet there is pressure from the EU on these countries to abrogate these treaties. So for God's sake don't rely on my words -- check with the relevant embassy before you overstay the Schengen 90 days anywhere.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:43   #4
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

thanks all for the info
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Old 10-12-2014, 07:52   #5
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengen Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Many Schengen countries want you to check in when you go from one Schengen country to the other on a yacht. I know this contradicts the idea of "no borders", but it is like that.
And in many others you have to go to rather great lengths to get your Schengen entry stamp, as we found out when we arrived in Spain with a Russian on board. In the end he shouldn't have bothered, and in case he was asked, just have told the authorities he arrived in Spain by land...
So it seems to relie heavily on voluntary compliance with the rules.
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Old 10-12-2014, 08:46   #6
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengen Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
And in many others you have to go to rather great lengths to get your Schengen entry stamp, as we found out when we arrived in Spain with a Russian on board. In the end he shouldn't have bothered, and in case he was asked, just have told the authorities he arrived in Spain by land...
So it seems to relie heavily on voluntary compliance with the rules.
This is a really important point!

I have also experienced incredibly problems getting my passport stamped on entry into the Schengen Zone. Usually, the port captain just shrugs and says you don't need to. Often the responsible authority is very hard to find and keeps limited hours.

Don't blow it off!!!!!

When they check you and find no stamp, you are in a heap of trouble!!!

And believe me, you WILL be checked at some point, and they will ask to see that stamp!

This applies to any non-EU citizen, and not just those, like Russians, who need their visas stamped.

You need to actively seek out and figure out where to get your passport stamped -- the stamp is to protect you, it's not for them.

Now I do make exceptions -- when I go to Cherbourg just for a weekend, on my UK flagged boat, I don't bother, nor do I bother clearing back in to the U.K. That's a calculated risk and common practice.

But for anything longer, I am careful to go through the formalities. Clearing into the UK is very easy -- you do it by phone. Schengen countries are different -- remind my of Ottoman Empire bureaucrats, peering at you suspiciously over a huge dusty ledger as you beg for a stamp, during their 45 minutes per day of office hours.
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Old 11-12-2014, 09:16   #7
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengen Europe

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You need to actively seek out and figure out where to get your passport stamped -- the stamp is to protect you, it's not for them.
Or Russian crew would indeed clear out and in at every port. But this was so that days at sea wouldn't count to the "90 days out of 180".

If this 1 year touring visa gets approved things change.
Most of the people that will take advantage of this visa will not be sailors. They will be backpackers on a gap year, or couples touring in an RV or something like that.
These people will have an entry stamp from when they arrive, and as long as it shows that they didn't overstay the total duration allowed on their visa they will, I assume, be OK, as the EU doesn't track the movement of people within Schengen there is no way that the compliance with the per country 90 out of 180 days limit can be enforced. Not for landlubbers. I wonder then why sailors should have to go through all the trouble...
Jut checking in upon your first arrival should suffice... Then you have your entry stamp. And then get an exit stamp when you leave.
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Old 11-12-2014, 13:21   #8
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

What was the original purpose of this 90 day rule?
What situation or problem was it supposed to solve?
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Old 12-12-2014, 00:16   #9
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Originally Posted by Normanby View Post
What was the original purpose of this 90 day rule?
What situation or problem was it supposed to solve?
90 days is a common time limit set on tourist visas. If I go to the US I can't stay longer than 90 days as well.
It's to avoid people abusing tourist visas to get around immigration restrictions. All countries do this.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:13   #10
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Normanby View Post
What was the original purpose of this 90 day rule?
What situation or problem was it supposed to solve?

The problem is the 90 is for entire EU not just one country. We have to count our days very closely to try and stay in compliance and we have visited multiple EU countries. The 90 days in one country would allow us to spend more time in the EU and enjoy a lot more than just keep moving.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:23   #11
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

Quote:
But for anything longer, I am careful to go through the formalities. Clearing into the UK is very easy --
I sailed some years ago into Kinsale, with an american on board, I rang Cork airport to find out how to processes his passport. This is a paraphrase of how the conversation wnt

"ah , you're the lads that sailed into Kinsale with the yank on board, I was wondering when you'd ring". ( how he knew this I don't know)

" Yes Does he have to go to the airport or the cork port or what"

" AH, no, listen be in xxx pub in KInsale , on wedneday, and Ill stamp his passport, sure we'll have a pint and you can tell me about the sailing trip"

" grand says i"

thats exactly what then happened. !!! The " Yank" was extremely bemused

Ah the innocence of those days !
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:24   #12
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengen Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This is a really important point!

I have also experienced incredibly problems getting my passport stamped on entry into the Schengen Zone. Usually, the port captain just shrugs and says you don't need to. Often the responsible authority is very hard to find and keeps limited hours.

Don't blow it off!!!!!

When they check you and find no stamp, you are in a heap of trouble!!!

And believe me, you WILL be checked at some point, and they will ask to see that stamp!

This applies to any non-EU citizen, and not just those, like Russians, who need their visas stamped.

You need to actively seek out and figure out where to get your passport stamped -- the stamp is to protect you, it's not for them.

Now I do make exceptions -- when I go to Cherbourg just for a weekend, on my UK flagged boat, I don't bother, nor do I bother clearing back in to the U.K. That's a calculated risk and common practice.

But for anything longer, I am careful to go through the formalities. Clearing into the UK is very easy -- you do it by phone. Schengen countries are different -- remind my of Ottoman Empire bureaucrats, peering at you suspiciously over a huge dusty ledger as you beg for a stamp, during their 45 minutes per day of office hours.
Well said. When we left Italy to Albania the Italians were very good about checking us out as they were making sure our passports were stamped when we checked back in in Venice. But the Albanians did not stamp our passports in or out. When i questioned it i was told we know where you are and i guess they have a good computer system but i still want a stamp and did not get it. We are headed back this next summer and will insist a bit more (but not to much) to get it stamped.

When we checked out at Lampedusa they started through my passport and wanted to know how we got there so I explained our trip and checking in in Venice but they wanted to know where we came from ie our home port and i said Miami Fl and they then wanted to know we got there from Miami so I explained but unfortunately i had new passport and only a few stamps in it but the admirals passport had all the years in it and they looked at hers and really got confused and told me to sit in a waiting room. About 45 mins later they came out and handed me the stamped passports so we could leave the EU.

One of the issues is the Tunisians stamp the passport in the back and the EU countries stamp in the front so i had to show them the outbound Tunisian stamp but the Admirals had both stamps. We also had stamps from inland travel to Macedona, Kosovo, and Serbia along with Montenegro and Croatia. So they were a bit confused as to when and where.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:26   #13
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckr View Post
The problem is the 90 is for entire EU not just one country. We have to count our days very closely to try and stay in compliance and we have visited multiple EU countries. The 90 days in one country would allow us to spend more time in the EU and enjoy a lot more than just keep moving.

for all intents an purposes the EU is a federated state. just think of seeking seperate visas to enter Montana for example.


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Old 12-12-2014, 03:28   #14
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
90 days is a common time limit set on tourist visas. If I go to the US I can't stay longer than 90 days as well.
It's to avoid people abusing tourist visas to get around immigration restrictions. All countries do this.

Its actually nothing to do with tourists per say, The EU effectively removed internal border controls on all internal borders, at the same time that meant its external borders moved from individual EU states , to the external EU border. This is a transnational border , hence it has to have a transnational, i.e. EU immigration policy, One of those solutions was the Schengen acquis.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:38   #15
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengen Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Many Schengen countries want you to check in when you go from one Schengen country to the other on a yacht. I know this contradicts the idea of "no borders", but it is like that.

Last summer, I sailed for four months between 8 Schengen countries. I am a non-European citizen but sailing a UK-flagged boat.
The flag of the boat is irrelevant, it could be a klingon war bird for all that matters, its the status of the people onboard that immigration laws affect.

Quote:
In the Netherlands, in Ijmuiden, where I arrived from Belgium, there was a notice in the harbormaster's office that any boat with non-EU citizens on board arriving even from another Schengen country needs to file a report and put it in the box. I dutifully did so, and was surprised when at 08:00 the next morning two armed Dutch border guards appeared at my EU-flagged boat to check passports. Even though there is theoretically no border between Netherlands and Belgium. They were extremely friendly, there were no problems, but they asked a lot of questions and filled out a long form.
The Schengen agreement, does actually NOT apply to yachts travelling on non-agreed routes into and out of Schengen countries, countries are free to chose procedures themselves as to how they deal with that. Some require check-in , some don't.

Quote:
In Sweden, there is apparently also a rule about checking in if there are non-EU citizens on board. I never did it and no one asked any questions
.

EU does a lot of things by self-assesment.

Quote:
In Germany, I was boarded unprovoked by a whole team of coast guards, and what they were interested in was passports. Again, very friendly, no problems, but the check was thorough.
There is a cultural inclination for that unfortunately


Quote:
In Helgoland, I also got an early morning visit from Customs, who checked all of the boat papers thoroughly, and while pretending to be friendly, asked a lot of questions intended to provoke the revelation of a violation, including how long I had been in the Schengen zone (but they took my word for it and didn't check my passport stamps, at least), how much cash we had on board, etc., etc., etc.
yes, never volunteer information, answer each question precisely and with as short an answer as practical. remember the rule of officialdom, " no good deed goes unpunished".

Quote:
So, I guess they can easily catch you if you overstay the 90 days in any one country.
Actually no, overstays are rife and a continuing problem, that the EU doesn't really know how to handle.


Quote:
Note well -- there is a confusing and little-known exception to the old 90-out-of-180 days Schengen rule (which apparently remains in force subject to this visa). A number of European countries have bilateral treaties with the U.S., Canada, and/or the Antipodean countries, which remain in force despite Schengen. Among these France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and Poland; maybe others. In Sweden -- confirmed by a Swedish embassy in correspondence with me -- they don't care about time spent in other Schengen countries, only in Nordic countries. So you could spend 90 days in France, Netherlands, and Germany, then sail across and spend another 90 days in Denmark and Sweden, and you are legal as far as the Swedes are concerned. It seems -- but the German embassy did not confirm -- that the same is true in Germany versus any other Schengen country. And in France versus any other Schengen country. In France, Americans can apparently stay for 180 days out of 365, BUT don't do that and then go to Switzerland -- where they don't recognize the French exception and will nail you for overstaying Schengen.
Yes unfortunately national agreements that predate Schengen still have national validity. Its not for nothing that the EU has been described as trying to " herd cats"

Over time these national agreements are being either dropped or codified into extensions to Schengen ( like the 1 year extended visa being proposed)

Quote:
I think this regime makes a chaos out of the Schengen system, so I bet there is pressure from the EU on these countries to abrogate these treaties. So for God's sake don't rely on my words -- check with the relevant embassy before you overstay the Schengen 90 days anywhere.
Right now I think the reform of the CAP system and the milk quota has more priority !!!!

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