New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by chuckr

Well said. When we left Italy to Albania the Italians were very good about checking us out as they were making sure our passports were stamped when we checked back in in Venice. But the Albanians did not stamp our passports in or out. When i questioned it i was told we know where you are and i guess they have a good computer system but i still want a stamp and did not get it. We are headed back this next summer and will insist a bit more (but not to much) to get it stamped.

When we checked out at Lampedusa they started through my passport and wanted to know how we got there so I explained our trip and checking in in Venice but they wanted to know where we came from ie our home port and i said Miami Fl and they then wanted to know we got there from Miami so I explained but unfortunately i had new passport and only a few stamps in it but the admirals passport had all the years in it and they looked at hers and really got confused and told me to sit in a waiting room. About 45 mins later they came out and handed me the stamped passports so we could leave the EU.

One of the issues is the Tunisians stamp the passport in the back and the EU countries stamp in the front so i had to show them the outbound Tunisian stamp but the Admirals had both stamps. We also had stamps from inland travel to Macedona, Kosovo, and Serbia along with Montenegro and Croatia. So they were a bit confused as to when and where.

Listen, if you're white, have a nice accent, obviously own a big "f^&k off" boat, look like you arnt going to live on their social security for 2 years, don't fret this stuff. Explain, " they " vaguely gesturing in the direction of the other country, didn't do this or that, I mean you tried, but whats a poor ( rich) yachtsman to do.

Ah yes the official says " them" are always screwing up. wait till I put a few stamps in your passports, you'll be fine.


Try the same escapade, looking like you got off a boat from the African coast, and see a slightly different version of officialdom.

Remember , be nice, sigh, look belwidered, if asked always, answer " Well at home , they don't have a problem with this, I don't know what to do"

It helps to have big breasts :face palm:

If your American, do the " dumb" american thing, shrug, explain nick speaken xxxx", that used to work, sadly the internet is spreading English way too quickly I find.

Whatever you do , don't bang the table, demand your rights etc ( remember most of these are (ex-)monarchies, some only recently discovered voting rights, you haven't any rights , the King has them all )

Cant be many left I haven't abused in this post.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by chuckr

The problem is the 90 is for entire EU not just one country.

Like in the US where it's 90 days for the whole union, not each republic.

[valhalla360]

" According to the study supporting the IA, the number of potential beneficiaries of the new authorisation is rather limited. Implementation of the first option might concern approximately 60000 applicants, while the second option might double the number of potential applicants. These are rather small numbers, bearing in mind that there were more than 15 million ‘Schengen’ visa applications in 2012 and the number of applications is rising steadily."

Interesting, these schengen threads always talk about how low the numbers doing it are...and this supports that premise. Even if you figure all of them are on boats it's a tiny percentage who come by boat but realistically, it's probably a small percentage of this number.

Also, I know if you stay in hotels, they typically want to see your passport when checking in. They probably figure that covers the issue for the vast majority. I'm sure if you gave them sufficent reason, they could demand your financial records and it would be pretty easy to establish where you've been hanging out. Reality is cruisers can still probably fly under the radar a bit as long as they don't create problems but officials feel the need, I'm sure they can show you violated the rules.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

" According to the study supporting the IA, the number of potential beneficiaries of the new authorisation is rather limited. Implementation of the first option might concern approximately 60000 applicants, while the second option might double the number of potential applicants. These are rather small numbers, bearing in mind that there were more than 15 million ‘Schengen’ visa applications in 2012 and the number of applications is rising steadily."

Interesting, these schengen threads always talk about how low the numbers doing it are...and this supports that premise. Even if you figure all of them are on boats it's a tiny percentage who come by boat but realistically, it's probably a small percentage of this number.

Also, I know if you stay in hotels, they typically want to see your passport when checking in. They probably figure that covers the issue for the vast majority. I'm sure if you gave them sufficent reason, they could demand your financial records and it would be pretty easy to establish where you've been hanging out. Reality is cruisers can still probably fly under the radar a bit as long as they don't create problems but officials feel the need, I'm sure they can show you violated the rules.

passport checking in hotels is only the law in a few places, its primarily to report your " residence" to the police. Its not up to the hotel ( or actually the police) to check the validity of your passport. in fact many will take a EU drivers license, or a national ID card instead. Its merely to confirm your identify.

Its quite difficult in the EU to track time in the Schengen area, because you can quite legitimacy travel over former borders by road or rail , with no checkin requirements. Equally you can make the case that you couldn't get an exit stamp etc. Generally a considerable leeway is applied to overstays, unless the official suspects you may be a repeat offender etc.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

passport checking in hotels is only the law in a few places, its primarily to report your " residence" to the police. Its not up to the hotel ( or actually the police) to check the validity of your passport. in fact many will take a EU drivers license, or a national ID card instead. Its merely to confirm your identify.

Its quite difficult in the EU to track time in the Schengen area, because you can quite legitimacy travel over former borders by road or rail , with no checkin requirements. Equally you can make the case that you couldn't get an exit stamp etc. Generally a considerable leeway is applied to overstays, unless the official suspects you may be a repeat offender etc.

But it leaves a paper trail if you are questioned. Even if you use an EU drivers license (not really practicle for folks outside from outside the EU), it still establishes you at that location on those dates.

No, I don't think they are going to agressively pursue it but if you get yourself into trouble (you get into a dispute over VAT, it gets ugly, they call in the immigration folks), it wouldn't take much for them to backcheck your story.

Cruisers are probably have a little more leaway if they are hanging out in anchorages where the port captain doesn't check you in or out.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But it leaves a paper trail if you are questioned. Even if you use an EU drivers license (not really practicle for folks outside from outside the EU), it still establishes you at that location on those dates.

No, I don't think they are going to agressively pursue it but if you get yourself into trouble (you get into a dispute over VAT, it gets ugly, they call in the immigration folks), it wouldn't take much for them to backcheck your story.

Cruisers are probably have a little more leaway if they are hanging out in anchorages where the port captain doesn't check you in or out.

immigration in europe is actually in a fairly big mess, with quite considerable numbers of people wandering around moving domicile to stay ahead of the authorities. The removal of internal borders, occurred really before the EU had a chance to really tie down external border controls and some countries leak like sieves

If you see the tight integrated computerised surveillance of visitors to the US, you'll see that the EU has an awful long way to go , before it gets on top of things, look at the complete fiasco of the Uks e-borders etc.

I think we can look forward to many years of bumbling bureaucracy and long may that continue !

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But it leaves a paper trail if you are questioned. Even if you use an EU drivers license (not really practicle for folks outside from outside the EU), it still establishes you at that location on those dates.

I have done trips that involved several internal EU borders, a few hotels, and even one flight, and where at not a single moment I was asked to produce a piece of identity. The EU doesn't track people.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I have done trips that involved several internal EU borders, a few hotels, and even one flight, and where at not a single moment I was asked to produce a piece of identity. The EU doesn't track people.

Theres lots of stories like that all over the world. One dude said he had never cleared in in any country in 18 years. But in the last two countries in the last two months I have had coast guard boarding and checking papers. Its a difficult thing to risk.

But more importantly is that a retired couple cruising the Med or the world and generally going to be law abiding citizens. If there is a sign saying No Fishing they wont fish. If the law says piss off after 90 days the vast majority of cruisers will ensure they are out by then.

We all know of laws that the only people who seem to obey are the ones the law wasnt designed for thats life.

I am honest and law abiding. If there is a rule I will do my best to do what 99% of cruisers will do.

So yay for the change of laws in the EU.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Theres lots of stories like that all over the world.

My point is that this did not just happen by chance.
Last time I left Zürich on a flight to another destination within Schengen I was not not required to show any ID when going airside, nor ddi I need to show an ID at the gate. Just scanning my boarding pass (which I printed out at home) was sufficient.
Most hotels will also just accept who you are at face value. They don't need to see an ID.
If you travel by car within the Schengen area often the only thing that will indicate you've crossed a border is that the road surface suddenly became better (or worse).
You can travel all over Europe legally, without leaving a paper trail. Travel by private car or train.

So this is my point: If it's not done to track where people are within the EU, why then would cruisers have to abide with being tracked so closely?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

My point is that this did not just happen by chance.
Last time I left Zürich on a flight to another destination within Schengen I was not not required to show any ID when going airside, nor ddi I need to show an ID at the gate. Just scanning my boarding pass (which I printed out at home) was sufficient.
Most hotels will also just accept who you are at face value. They don't need to see an ID.
If you travel by car within the Schengen area often the only thing that will indicate you've crossed a border is that the road surface suddenly became better (or worse).
You can travel all over Europe legally, without leaving a paper trail. Travel by private car or train.

So this is my point: If it's not done to track where people are within the EU, why then would cruisers have to abide with being tracked so closely?

Sure you can circumvent any system if you are willing to take the risks and put in the effort. They aren't systematically tracking visitors.

The problem is even with you not showing ID on your flight, if there is reason, they can easily track that you were on the flight (or at least make a reasonable presumption that would put you in an awkward position if you claim that it wasn't you).

As I mentioned before, this isn't an issue where they are systematically tracking you for no good reason. This is an issue when you get caught up in another problem (someone decides you owe $50k VAT or you get involved in a crash that was your fault) and when they start asking question, they can easily show you were breaking the rules and hold that over your head.

So it's a great thing that they make it easier to follow the rules. Most cruisers would prefer to follow the rules.

[MarkJ]

Boats is diffrunt to planes, trains and automobiles.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

As I mentioned before, this isn't an issue where they are systematically tracking you for no good reason. This is an issue when you get caught up in another problem (someone decides you owe $50k VAT or you get involved in a crash that was your fault) and when they start asking question, they can easily show you were breaking the rules and hold that over your head.

I never said I was breaking rules. I'm not even bending them. My point is that since it is perfectly possible to travel all over Europe without a paper trail, and this while abiding by the rules, the authorities can't make a case that I didn't abide by the rules when there isn't a paper trail.

Suppose this touring visa really materializes. And someone comes to Europe on such a Visa. He lands in Rome, gets his entry stamp and starts traveling around. Then a few months later he end s up in an ID check. The only thing he will have in his passport is an entry stamp that is 3 months old, and a Visa valid for a year. If the authorities ask him if he abided by the 90/180 rule for each country he just states " yes". And I suspect that will be all.

So in practice the only thing you'll have to worry about when on this hypothetical on year touring visa is not overstaying the total length.




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[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Boats is diffrunt to planes, trains and automobiles.

From the point of view of the EU boats are a lot like automobiles.


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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

My point is that this did not just happen by chance.
Last time I left Zürich on a flight to another destination within Schengen I was not not required to show any ID when going airside, nor ddi I need to show an ID at the gate. Just scanning my boarding pass (which I printed out at home) was sufficient.
Most hotels will also just accept who you are at face value. They don't need to see an ID.
If you travel by car within the Schengen area often the only thing that will indicate you've crossed a border is that the road surface suddenly became better (or worse).
You can travel all over Europe legally, without leaving a paper trail. Travel by private car or train.

So this is my point: If it's not done to track where people are within the EU, why then would cruisers have to abide with being tracked so closely?

The logic of this is the same as "I ran right through a red light last night, and nothing happened; therefore, there's no reason to worry about red lights; nothing will happen."

Just because you didn't show a passport once, doesn't mean you aren't tracked. You are. Every time you fly, your data go into the APIS system and is distributed to all the immigration and police authorities. Most hotels in Europe report all the names (and often passport numbers) to the police every night. Police cameras on all highways in Europe track the movements of all cars. Big Brother is watching you every second!

I was boarded three times last summer in the Baltic and thoroughly checked. If they doubt anything about your story, they have access to AIS records in a database. And they will check your log and marina receipts. Many European countries require you to check in and out if you have non-EU citizens on board, even if you're not leaving the Schengen zon.

I do not recommend violating the rules -- there are a million ways to be caught!

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The logic of this is the same as "I ran right through a red light last night, and nothing happened; therefore, there's no reason to worry about red lights; nothing will happen."

I do t understand how this is comparable. I am not breaking any rules.
It's like "I didn't drive trough a red light. If the police wants to fine me for driving trough a red light they have to prove that I drove through a red light."


BTW: Schengen zone airline passengers don't get registered in APIS.



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