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Old 15-12-2014, 10:51   #31
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Theres lots of stories like that all over the world. One dude said he had never cleared in in any country in 18 years. But in the last two countries in the last two months I have had coast guard boarding and checking papers. Its a difficult thing to risk.

But more importantly is that a retired couple cruising the Med or the world and generally going to be law abiding citizens. If there is a sign saying No Fishing they wont fish. If the law says piss off after 90 days the vast majority of cruisers will ensure they are out by then.

We all know of laws that the only people who seem to obey are the ones the law wasnt designed for thats life.

I am honest and law abiding. If there is a rule I will do my best to do what 99% of cruisers will do.

So yay for the change of laws in the EU.

Mark,

Come to Sweden and shack up with a Swedish bird for 2 years and if you stay in Sweden for 1 further year you can get your citizenship, Swedish passport and no Schengen issues ever again
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Old 15-12-2014, 11:12   #32
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Just because you didn't show a passport once, doesn't mean you aren't tracked. You are. Every time you fly, your data go into the APIS system and is distributed to all the immigration and police authorities. Most hotels in Europe report all the names (and often passport numbers) to the police every night. Police cameras on all highways in Europe track the movements of all cars. Big Brother is watching you every second!
Correct, some one is traceable each time he is doing a money transaction, use a traceable phone, join a forum.
By the way better not giving a false name to a hotel. I know a friend, just to be romantically discreet, that give the name of another person and got picked up by the police at 2 am, the friend name was on a wanted list and this was before computer.
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Old 15-12-2014, 13:03   #33
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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I do t understand how this is comparable. I am not breaking any rules.
It's like "I didn't drive trough a red light. If the police wants to fine me for driving trough a red light they have to prove that I drove through a red light."

Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
If we assume you stayed less than 90 days and broke no rules....it's not really relevant to the discussion.

Someone suggested just don't worry about it as they don't track you. That would would seem to imply, you can just ignore the rules and just like running a red light or speeding, getting away with it once is in no way protection from getting caught the next time.

While it may not be standard practice, they most definetly can track you.
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Old 15-12-2014, 21:38   #34
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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If we assume you stayed less than 90 days and broke no rules....it's not really relevant to the discussion.

Someone suggested just don't worry about it as they don't track you. That would would seem to imply, you can just ignore the rules and just like running a red light or speeding, getting away with it once is in no way protection from getting caught the next time.

While it may not be standard practice, they most definetly can track you.
I'm not saying "don't worry, they don't track you".
I'm not saying "you can ignore the rules and get away with it".

You're all missing my point.

I'm saying "The Schengen Area is basically one single country for visa purposes. How are they going to enforce a rule that you can only stay 90 days of of 180 for single member states?".

It's as if the US were to introduce a visa that allows you to stay for a year on the condition that you don't spend more than 90 days out of 180 in an individual state. How would that be enforced?

Which is why I believe that this Touring Visa is effectively just going to be a year long (with extensions even) Schengen Visa that will indeed give you the freedom to pretty much go where you want when you want within Schengen.
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Old 15-12-2014, 21:42   #35
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Correct, some one is traceable each time he is doing a money transaction, use a traceable phone, join a forum.
We're still far from living in a panopticon. There is a lot of data about you and me in various databases, but they aren't linked. The tax department doesn't get insight in my bank records (not without a warrant), nor does the state get my phone records.
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Old 15-12-2014, 22:17   #36
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

One interesting insight I got about immigration officers is that they feel overworked, underpaid and definitely underappreciated!

They view any missing stamp as YOUR mistake, not theirs ....and will definately make you sweat over it.

I always check their work.
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Old 16-12-2014, 00:51   #37
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Come to Sweden and shack up with a Swedish bird for 2 years and if you stay in Sweden for 1 further year you can get your citizenship, Swedish passport and no Schengen issues ever again
And, after cohabiting for a year, if you split she takes half your wealth (and you half of hers). While they may not call it common law marriage that is essentially how their legal system handles it.

I spent about 8 years in Europe (Ireland, EU, the continent) and another 4 in Turkey with no problems. That was 1996 to 2009. No doubt there is more scrutiny today - it increased after 9/11 to be sure. I had universally good experiences with the immigration folks. Some countries are insistent on precise enforcement, others are more flexible. Clearly it is best to do everything correctly and above board. OTOH it is not unheard of for customs officials to ignore the rules for yachtsmen who want to spend the winter in their fair city, as long as you look decent and affluent - and move along in the spring.

Greg
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Old 16-12-2014, 03:57   #38
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
We're still far from living in a panopticon. There is a lot of data about you and me in various databases, but they aren't linked. The tax department doesn't get insight in my bank records (not without a warrant), nor does the state get my phone records.
If you believe that, I suggest you read Snowden's revelations in Wikileaks. What he reveals is just the tip of the iceberg -- just part of the American part of the whole. The Russians and Europeans have similar programs and capabilities.

Theoretically, a warrant is needed to read your emails or text messages, or listen to your telephone conversations, for example, in most civilized countries. In practice, it is done all the time without any warrant by multiple states.

And there is no law in any country (as far as I'm aware) about collecting non-private information (like where your car has been; where you travel) and organizing it systematically. This is being done on a huge scale. In Europe, passenger information has been collected from airlines since at least 2008 through the European version of APIS (euro PNR). From next year, it is likely that this information concerning internal flights in Europe will be shared openly -- a multilateral agreement is being negotiated (see: EU PNR still on the agenda | Press Release | EPP Group in the European Parliament).

Every vessel which broadcasts AIS is also tracked. This is easiest of all since this information is publicly available to anyone. Anyone with a subscription to Marinetraffic can see everywhere my boat has been since I installed AIS, or any other vessel broadcasting AIS.

Cars are tracked in various European countries with automatic number plate recognition systems. See: Police-enforced ANPR in the UK - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The British are most advanced and have already achieved the ability to track virtually any car anywhere in the country in real time. The French are developing a similar system. In Germany, there has been an admirable backlash against the system, and some limits on the use of collected data have been put in place. In most countries, there is hardly any limitation on how the state can use the data.


In short, you should never assume that they can't know where you've been. Whether the official you are dealing with actually does know or not is a different question; whether he even cares or not is yet another question, but never assume that they can't enforce a requirement not to spend more than a certain time in any one Schengen country. They have many, many ways to enforce it despite the apparent lack of borders. The first thing they will do is simply ask to see your marina receipts or other evidence of where you've been.
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Old 16-12-2014, 04:03   #39
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
One interesting insight I got about immigration officers is that they feel overworked, underpaid and definitely underappreciated!

They view any missing stamp as YOUR mistake, not theirs ....and will definately make you sweat over it.

I always check their work.

The key insights!

The correct way to deal with immigration issues is to always strictly follow the rules, and always make sure that you have all of the right documents and stamps.

Then if on top of that, you show the right attitude to the immigration officers, and you have a good chance not to have any problems.
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Old 16-12-2014, 05:40   #40
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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I sailed some years ago into Kinsale, with an american on board, I rang Cork airport to find out how to processes his passport. This is a paraphrase of how the conversation wnt

"ah , you're the lads that sailed into Kinsale with the yank on board, I was wondering when you'd ring". ( how he knew this I don't know)

" Yes Does he have to go to the airport or the cork port or what"

" AH, no, listen be in xxx pub in KInsale , on wedneday, and Ill stamp his passport, sure we'll have a pint and you can tell me about the sailing trip"

" grand says i"

thats exactly what then happened. !!! The " Yank" was extremely bemused

Ah the innocence of those days !
Virtually the same thing happened to us 3 years ago when we landed in Cork. No Yanks on board just two Canadians 3 days finding someone to answer the phone and then cleared in in the club bar! civilized!
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Old 16-12-2014, 13:45   #41
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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And, after cohabiting for a year, if you split she takes half your wealth (and you half of hers). While they may not call it common law marriage that is essentially how their legal system handles it.
Hahahahahaha how wrong can you be

I was with a Swede living together for 4 years. I was a well paid IT consultant and she was a student. We bought an apartment together and when I say "we", I mean I paid nearly 50% of it in cash and paid for the loan on the rest whilst she just was a signature on the ownership and loan documents.

When we broke up, I kept the apartment, most of the furniture and paid her something like $4,000.
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Old 16-12-2014, 13:54   #42
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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....The correct way to deal with immigration issues is to always strictly follow the rules, and always make sure that you have all of the right documents and stamps.
...
Not sure if you meant this seriously or not. It is virtually impossible to know the rules of many of the countries that we check into. There are the rules as defined by the capital. There are the rules practiced in some port district. There are the rules practiced by some official. There are the Monday to Friday rules and the weekend rules. Even in countries with advanced legal infrastructures, like the US, the rules can be dependent on which part of the country you are in and who you are dealing with.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:11   #43
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengen Europe

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Not sure if you meant this seriously or not. It is virtually impossible to know the rules of many of the countries that we check into. There are the rules as defined by the capital. There are the rules practiced in some port district. There are the rules practiced by some official. There are the Monday to Friday rules and the weekend rules. Even in countries with advanced legal infrastructures, like the US, the rules can be dependent on which part of the country you are in and who you are dealing with.
Of course I meant it seriously. Just because the rules can be complicated doesn't mean that you have a right to ignore them. In Europe, unlike in the third world, there is at least some order in it, so you will almost never find some port official making up his own rules which contradict the law. You need to use reasonable due diligence to figure out what it is you need to do, then make sure you do that. That's the only sure way to stay out of trouble.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:19   #44
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I'm not saying "don't worry, they don't track you".
I'm not saying "you can ignore the rules and get away with it".

You're all missing my point.

I'm saying "The Schengen Area is basically one single country for visa purposes. How are they going to enforce a rule that you can only stay 90 days of of 180 for single member states?".

It's as if the US were to introduce a visa that allows you to stay for a year on the condition that you don't spend more than 90 days out of 180 in an individual state. How would that be enforced?

Which is why I believe that this Touring Visa is effectively just going to be a year long (with extensions even) Schengen Visa that will indeed give you the freedom to pretty much go where you want when you want within Schengen.
When you say "how are they going to enforce it?" it sure sounds like you're saying people shouldn't worry about obeying it. I'm not sure what other point there could be, to saying that. Especially when you add "freedom to pretty much go wherever you want when you want", even if the terms of your visa forbid you to do that.

Also, I can answer the question "how are they going to enforce it?", with regard to the Schengen touring visa.

When they ask you -- "how long have you been in Italy?" They can make you show your marina receipts, show your log (which you are legally required to keep), or show other evidence of where you've been. And if you've in fact been in Italy for nine months, you're going to have some problems. The burden of proving that you haven't overstayed in one country will be on you.

They can and will do that, so don't ignore the rule about how long you get to stay in any one country. They will certainly be able to enforce it.

Same thing with U.S. states, by the way. There are some rules based on how long you stay in one state -- for example, state motor vehicle taxes. Just because there are no borders between the States, does not mean that they can't nail you for failing to re-register your vehicle and pay tax on it, if you've lived for more than 185 days in a new state. They can and do nail you. They have all kinds of ways to enforce it.
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Old 16-12-2014, 18:48   #45
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Re: New Visa laws for Schengan Europe

Hoppy-

That is a surprise. I spent the winter of 98-99 in Göteborg and knew a Swede who arranged to move out just before the year was up just so as to not fall into that trap. (He had been buying-fixing up-selling distressed property, and sold the house out from under for business purposes.) I wonder if it is different if one person is not a citizen, or perhaps you had an amicable agreement rather than going to court?

Back to visas: I can't believe the attitude that the officials have to prove that you broke the rules - it sounds like someone from a common law country. No, they are not going away if they are suspicious just because they can't prove anything (yet) - that kind of attitude will encourage them to find the proof. And as has been pointed out they can get it if they want to. If you are caught outside of the laws/regs/rules the only approach is to admit, apologize, and hope for the best (which often works well, but may end up with a fine and deportation). Playing lawyer or telling tales will rarely work out well - oddly enough officials find this behavior disrespectful and offensive.

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