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Old 18-06-2014, 14:18   #91
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post

- can a small dinghy impede an almost small boat under power in a channel that is nine times the beam of the boat under power?

- is a boat doing 3.5 knots in a 5 knot channel impeding anyone?

- should a dinghy sailing up a channel be expected to short tack within the starboard side of the channel (27 yards or 87 feet) that is only five times the length of the dinghy?

...
It's possible to impede under certain conditions. There shouldn't be a problem if there is cooperation.

It could. That's a 43-percent speed differential not counting that the sailboat is going back and forth across the plumb line.

The sailboat should make short tacks if necessary not to impede.
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Old 18-06-2014, 14:34   #92
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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It could. That's a 43-percent speed differential not counting that the sailboat is going back and forth across the plumb line.
Not familiar with that term. Is the plumb line the same as the rhumb line in nautical parlance? Plumb lines on land are typically vertical.
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Old 18-06-2014, 14:45   #93
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Even if he was making 3.5 knots, due to the tacking, his rate of advance would be quite a bit slower. The speed is a side issue really.
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:09   #94
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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He doesn't get it, won't ever get it. He convinced against his will, remains unconvinced still. He must be right. 100% right. I guess now we understand completely that he only wanted the views of those who agreed with him. He found a couple on shore who he says did. Wonder if their interpretation matches his.
When did I say I was correct and I would always act if I was correct?

I said this very interesting discussion has made me realize there are multiple interpretations that can withstand close scrutiny. I said that I would carefully keep that in mind in the future. I said I would certainly base future actions on the assumption that other interpreted the situation and rules differently than I.

I did say - I believe I was correct but I would certainly behave and operate the boat as if there were another valid interpretation. Which is exactly what I did in the original situation!

It seems to me that the problem is that I do not agree with you 100% and you think that you and only you have the right answer.

A professional captain who had just passed me with no problem felt the other boat initiated and escalated the problem. He is a very experienced powerboat operator and quite familiar with the channel. I did not solicit his opinion, I did not ask him to talk to the marina manager, and I did not know him except to say hello when this incident occurred.

Two other professional, full time captains, who transit the channel on an almost daily basis agreed with the captain who passed me.

That is a total of over 60 years experience as captains.

I did not know that a non-involved professional captain had been a witness when I started these threads. Now, I am concerned about the multitude of opinions such as expressed by BandB that those captains who did see me sailing and who did witness the incident or who transit the channel on a daily basis in powerboats and sailboats are all incorrect in their analysis of Rule 13 and Rule 18.

BandB further said:
But then none of us have boated 42 years without ever coming close to colliding with another boat. Of course I guess close in his view is within 3 feet, since obviously 45 feet isn't close. Well, I admit, I've come close as I've had boats cut in front of me where I had to back off and turn. Well, I considered it close and it wasn't even under 45 feet. But then my definition of close is way different than Tacoma's.

That is truly an idiotic statement! The channel is 150' wide - the other boat is on the center line so the maximum possible distance I could be from him (my bow to his port side) would be 49' (75-17-9 my length and his beam) IF I stay hard up against the rocks or the docks.

Are you really saying that I should not have gotten closer than 45 feet? That would mean I would always have to stay within less than my boat length of one side or the other. Your statement leads to the conclusion that no boat can ever sail up or down the channel if another boat is present.

BandB further said:
Do you drive the same way on the road? Guess I learned defensive driving in driver's training and it's stuck with me. Defensive driving principles do still apply on the water. More important than all the Colregs ever written. That is if your true intent is to avoid accidents instead of just being able to argue in court after one.

You may have picked the wrong analogy here!

I was a licensed professional operator of very large over the road vehicles with many years and thousands of miles in big city traffic, small towns, open roads, country roads, mountains, deserts with not a single accident...in rain, sleet, snow and the dark of night. Not to mention fog and bad drivers. Out number one priority, and number one incentive pay measure, was safe, defensive driving.

It is my responsibility, as a professional driver, to anticipate any unusual or non-normal situation before it becomes an issue that will cause me a problem. I am expected to make good decisions long before the situation deteriorates.

I enjoyed 5 days a year of recurrent training in the Smith System of defensive driving. We were tested, with a hardass ride along safety officer, twice a year.

I received annual commendations and bonuses for safe driving.

Why are you so down on my comments?

I did tack away as soon as I understood the other skippers intent. As you will recall, ??, I did talk to the other skipper face to face and he did not answer my fairly simple question. Once I understood that he saw the situation differently than I - I did the right thing and tacked away.

??
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:12   #95
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

.....
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:14   #96
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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.....
Will you share?
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:19   #97
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Will you share?
Sure, assuming you're not too busy typing a response.
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:27   #98
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Even if he was making 3.5 knots, due to the tacking, his rate of advance would be quite a bit slower. The speed is a side issue really.
The 3.5 knots was VMG - speed up the channel, I was sailing at 3 - 5 knots once I finished a tack.

Actually, the other captain involved in this incident told me and the marina manager that my speed was the ENTIRE, and only issue - thus Rule 9b!

The other captain, while talking to the marina manager, did not say my tacking was a problem - he said I was impeding his progress because I was only doing 3.5 knots up the channel and he wanted to go faster.

It was pointed out to everyone there that from the point where he started to pass me to where he turned to go into his slipway was less than 150 yards - he would cover that distance in 26 seconds at 3.5 knots and in 18 seconds at 5 knots.

when asked why he did not just pass me astern as had done the 52' boat that was one minute ahead of him - the other captain responded "rule 9b gives me the right of way and I should not have to deviate from my course."

At that point the marina manager told us to stop acting like spoiled children.

Fortunately, I did not have to say anything during the discussion.
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:32   #99
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Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Its matters not what any party claimed. Determination of COLREGS infringements are determined by typically admiralty courts and to my understanding that occurs in the event of collisions. There is no " near miss" situations
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:34   #100
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Sure, assuming you're not too busy typing a response.
No, I've given up.

Wifey B: Philosophical moments for the day

from The Mystery of Phanatacism

"Twas well observed by my Lord Bacon, That a little knowledge is apt to puff up, and make men giddy, but a greater share of it will set them right, and bring them to low and humble thoughts of themselves."

from An Essay on Criticism

"A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again."

from Albert Einstein:

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is a lot."

Now pass the freaking popcorn, Froggy!
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:36   #101
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

This entire thread has drifted off as I and others are repeating firmly held positions, all of which have some merit, and none of which are likely to change.

My original question was about the change in overtaking status and how my tacking might or might not change the status of the boat down channel from me.

My understanding is that some believe my tacking up the channel meant I could not be expect to be protected by Rule 13 and others disagree.

I am not sure if much more useful can be said here.

I understand there is a wide variety of interpretations and will continue to act in a manner that reflects my understanding that others may not agree with my reading of the situation.

Thanks for all the helpful, interesting, and sometimes entertaining comments.
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Old 18-06-2014, 15:46   #102
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Its matters not what any party claimed. Determination of COLREGS infringements are determined by typically admiralty courts and to my understanding that occurs in the event of collisions. There is no " near miss" situations
I think You are generally right, except some situations.
Some twenty years ago the Maritime Court here ruled, that COLREGS are applicable for determination of responsibility even if collision didn't happen, but the damage actually resulted from infringement.
It was the case of the vessel put on the shallow sandbank as an effect of avoidance action forced by the other vessel, obliged to give the way.

Cheers,

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Old 18-06-2014, 16:13   #103
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Not familiar with that term. Is the plumb line the same as the rhumb line in nautical parlance? Plumb lines on land are typically vertical.
I meant rhumb line. At least plumb rhymes with it.
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Old 18-06-2014, 16:18   #104
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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I meant rhumb line. At least plumb rhymes with it.
Nice example of autocorretion???
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Old 18-06-2014, 16:18   #105
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

In the case of an actual collision the courts apportion responsibility, no one is ever all in the right, if a collision happens then both parties are held responsible. The other party claiming speed was the only issue makes him near sighted to the actual situation. The only part that speed plays in this instance is was he going fast enough to clear you and make his turn without causing a close quarters situation. Your speed only matters relative to his passing you, in a timely fashion to make his turn. If either of you had pulled back a little the situation would never have developed to the extent that it did. If he had displayed a little patience and pulled the throttles back and let you go on ahead until you had passed his turning point there would not be any discussion here at all. If you had luffed for a minute to allow him to pass more quickly then again, no close quarters, no problem. I too am a professional mariner and deal with close quarters situations on an almost daily basis, and I follow the rules as much as sanity dictates, but my go to response is, "when in doubt, pull them out" meaning throttle back and give yourself more time to assess the situation and make sure you are moving out of danger instead of into it. I for one would not care what opinion the Marina manager might have. What when you have a disagreement on the water, you have mommy settle it on the dock?
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