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Old 16-06-2014, 10:33   #46
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Why doesn't radio communication enter into all this? Am I to assume you don't have one?
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Old 16-06-2014, 10:39   #47
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

A bit of drift- is it just me or have others encountered situations where power boaters have gone out of their way to cut in front of you?

As in they could just hold their course when over-taking and be free and clear, but instead they change course to go around, and then in front of you. It's like "because he is slower than me, I must go in front of him" even when it isn't necessary.
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Old 16-06-2014, 10:40   #48
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Why doesn't radio communication enter into all this? Am I to assume you don't have one?
why do people always think radio is the answer. the radio mightn't be on, you mightn't be near it, its wastes time.etc


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Old 16-06-2014, 10:42   #49
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

BandB stated:
"While you ultimately tacked away you seemed to push it as far as you could. ...

You asked him by yelling? Am I to assume you had no radio? Couldn't communicate in that way? Perhaps he tried to reach you by radio?
"

I did continue to hold my course after he said he saw me. I believed, with considerable justification, that I was sailing he was motoring, and therefore I was the stand on vessel. Once I realized, 10 seconds later, that he was slowing in front of me I asked him if I could pass ahead. He did not respond so I waited another 10 seconds to see what would happen. When it became apparent that he was going to continue to pass ahead of me, I tacked away.

How is any of that "pushing it as far as you could" ?



Of course I asked him by yelling - actually it did not require a yell since he was only 30 yards distant and looking directly at me. I looked him in the eyes and spoke directly to the other captain. By the time I asked him, 10 seconds later, if I could pass ahead we were only 15 yards apart and a conversational voice was all that was required.

How else should I have communicated?

I am puzzled by the comments criticizing my actions- as I said:

- I communicated with the other captain
- I thought I understood the situation
- Once I saw he and I had different understandings of the situation I again tried to communicate with the other captain
- When that communication failed I tacked away from the potential collision

My desire here was to gain a thorough technical understanding of the various interpretations of Rule 9, 13, 18 and perhaps 8.
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Old 16-06-2014, 10:49   #50
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
I did continue to hold my course after he said he saw me. I believed, with considerable justification, that I was sailing he was motoring, and therefore I was the stand on vessel. Once I realized, 10 seconds later, that he was slowing in front of me I asked him if I could pass ahead. He did not respond so I waited another 10 seconds to see what would happen. When it became apparent that he was going to continue to pass ahead of me, I tacked away.

Rule 9 applies , if he couldn't realistically proceed outside whatever "channel " you were tacking in. Hence that rule required you not to impede him. In this case you are not the "stand on vessel".


equally he was obliged by rule 13 to keep put of your way, so he should have not engineered a situation where he was not able to keep clear. Rule 13(d) makes it clear that simply because you tacked , in itself does not turn an overtaking action into a crossing one.


Rule 18 does not apply as the actions are covered by proceeding rules
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Old 16-06-2014, 10:52   #51
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post

My desire here was to gain a thorough technical understanding of the various interpretations of Rule 9, 13, 18 and perhaps 8.
Have you? And if you have then how does that change anything? Has your opinion that he was all wrong and you were all right changed? Would you do the exact same thing next time?
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Old 16-06-2014, 10:59   #52
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
Tacoma, which Marina are you discussing? I'm guessing it was the East Basin?
Foss Waterway - Dock Street Marina

- enter while passing between grain loading terminal (really big ocean going bulk carriers) and sawdust barge anchorage

Then you must pass between

- tank farm with barges and tugs and Dock Street commercial moorage

- Crowely ocean going tug moorage and Large yacht boat houses

- Fire boat dock and Large yacht boat houses

- under 11th Street Bridge in very narrow channel

- Martinac boat building regular testing of BIG Tuna Boats and Ocean going Tugs

- D Street commercial fishing docks and Dock Street sea plane dock

There was seldom a trip in or out that did not require passing a large commercial vessel underway. And, just past my dock was the public kayak and canoe launch ramp so the channel always had several human powered vessels moving about.

I did also skipper a 26' sailboat for some folks that docked at the marina under the Sea Scout building. That boat had no motor so I did a lot of sailing in and out of the waterway.

I thought I was rather familiar with the rules
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Old 16-06-2014, 11:14   #53
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
Foss Waterway - Dock Street Marina

- enter while passing between grain loading terminal (really big ocean going bulk carriers) and sawdust barge anchorage

Then you must pass between

- tank farm with barges and tugs and Dock Street commercial moorage

- Crowely ocean going tug moorage and Large yacht boat houses

- Fire boat dock and Large yacht boat houses

- under 11th Street Bridge in very narrow channel

- Martinac boat building regular testing of BIG Tuna Boats and Ocean going Tugs

- D Street commercial fishing docks and Dock Street sea plane dock

There was seldom a trip in or out that did not require passing a large commercial vessel underway. And, just past my dock was the public kayak and canoe launch ramp so the channel always had several human powered vessels moving about.

I did also skipper a 26' sailboat for some folks that docked at the marina under the Sea Scout building. That boat had no motor so I did a lot of sailing in and out of the waterway.

I thought I was rather familiar with the rules
So you are in Tacoma, Washington? I missed something. Thought you were in San Diego.

Still having trouble matching your diagram to a satellite photo of the area.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=705+D...98402&t=m&z=16

Unless you were headed out of the channel instead of back into it as I assumed.
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Old 16-06-2014, 11:28   #54
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Have you? And if you have then how does that change anything? Has your opinion that he was all wrong and you were all right changed? Would you do the exact same thing next time?
I have learned that it would have been better if I had assumed the other captain might interpret the rules differently than I.

When I first asked him if he saw me I should have continued by IMMEDIATELY asking if I could pass ahead of him. At that point my path was well in front of his bow.

If he had responded that he did see me and NO I can not pass in front of him I would have then asked if I could pass astern. That would have prevented the situation of him slowing in front of me and blocking both the path ahead and the path astern.

I WILL NOT stop sailing in the channel since that is the only way in and out of the marina.

I will accept the fact that despite me sailing at the speed limit - boats under power may feel that my little sailboat is in the way and slowing them down.

I WILL make more of an effort to talk to other boats and to tell them how I would like them to pass me - just as I successfully did with several other boats on the day in question.

As a parenthetical remark - I talked to the skipper of a 52' boat that passed me that day. He is a licensed captain who is paid to mange the boat and he lives in our marina on an 85' boat.

I asked him how he interpreted the rules regarding his passing me as we both proceeded west in the channel. He was quite insistent:

- I was sailing he was motoring
- He had to yield to my sailboat
- The channel is wide and deep
- We effectively communicated, via hand signals, that I would cross his bow and he would pass astern of me
- We then chatted, without loud shouting, as he passed astern of me
- There was plenty of room for him to pass astern of me as I sailed to the right hand side of the channel
- I never impeded the passage of his much larger boat
- He did not have to slow from his 5 knot speed to pass me

He says that all the captains he knows that operate out of our marina understand that a lot of unpowered sailboats sail up and down the channel and that it is very easy to pass them either direction with only minor changes in course.

He says the local custom has always been to let the sailboats sail.

I talked with another captain who runs a day sailing/charter operation from my dock. He averages 12 (yes twelve!) operations a week from our dock. He has been here since 1988 and at one time had five sailboats in day-charter service on our dock.

He too confirmed the local custom of yielding to unpowered sailboats. He frequently sails his very nimble catamaran up and down the channel and he is adamant that his sailboat in the channel had rights over a powerboat per Rule 18.

I then talked to a captain who manages five sailboats over 50' in length and two powerboats over 65' in length. The 65' powerboat and all the sailboats are in this marina. He also does all the yacht movements for a very large boat brokerage in our marina. He has operated out of this marina for five years.

He averages five operations a week from this marina. He also owns a 28' sailboat with no motor and the boat I was sailing.

He too confirmed the local custom of yielding to unpowered sailboats.

He too confirmed that his understanding of sailboats and his big boats in the channel is that he, when powering, must avoid a boat under sail in the channel per Rule 18. He also said that even his 57' sailboat with an 8' draft has no problem maneuvering around and passing or overtaking the numerous small boats in the channel.



The captain in question was hired by a company that just moved their charter operation to our marina and the day in question was his first day operating his boat in the channel.
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Old 16-06-2014, 11:36   #55
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

OldFrog said:
So you are in Tacoma, Washington? I missed something. Thought you were in San Diego."

Still having trouble matching your diagram to a satellite photo of the area."



I and our boat and the channel in question are in San Diego. We have been here since late September 2010.

We kept our boat in Tacoma 1995 - 2000 and 2005-2010.

What can't you match up? The photo you reference shows the Dock Street Marina at the foot of the Museum of Glass and it shows all of the Thea Foss Waterway.

What is confusing?
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Old 16-06-2014, 11:40   #56
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
OldFrog said:
So you are in Tacoma, Washington? I missed something. Thought you were in San Diego."

Still having trouble matching your diagram to a satellite photo of the area."


I and our boat and the channel in question are in San Diego. We have been here since late September 2010.

We kept our boat in Tacoma 1995 - 2000 and 2005-2010.

What can't you match up? The photo you reference shows the Dock Street Marina at the foot of the Museum of Glass and it shows all of the Thea Foss Waterway.

What is confusing?
Because according to Google Maps, the Foss Waterway and Dock Street and 11th Street bridge is a map of Tacoma, Washington, and I'm trying to match up your diagram with San Diego, CA.

If you zoom out on the photo you will see it's near the Canadian border.

The only area in San Diego that I could see as possibly matching up with your diagram was the East Basin, hence the confusion.
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Old 16-06-2014, 11:57   #57
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

I would have thought the prudent thing to do would have been for you to have dropped back a few degrees and passed him at his stern and resumed your course.

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Old 16-06-2014, 11:57   #58
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
I have learned that it would have been better if I had assumed the other captain might interpret the rules differently than I.

When I first asked him if he saw me I should have continued by IMMEDIATELY asking if I could pass ahead of him. At that point my path was well in front of his bow.

If he had responded that he did see me and NO I can not pass in front of him I would have then asked if I could pass astern. That would have prevented the situation of him slowing in front of me and blocking both the path ahead and the path astern.

I WILL NOT stop sailing in the channel since that is the only way in and out of the marina.

I will accept the fact that despite me sailing at the speed limit - boats under power may feel that my little sailboat is in the way and slowing them down.

I WILL make more of an effort to talk to other boats and to tell them how I would like them to pass me - just as I successfully did with several other boats on the day in question.

As a parenthetical remark - I talked to the skipper of a 52' boat that passed me that day. He is a licensed captain who is paid to mange the boat and he lives in our marina on an 85' boat.

I asked him how he interpreted the rules regarding his passing me as we both proceeded west in the channel. He was quite insistent:

- I was sailing he was motoring
- He had to yield to my sailboat
- The channel is wide and deep
- We effectively communicated, via hand signals, that I would cross his bow and he would pass astern of me
- We then chatted, without loud shouting, as he passed astern of me
- There was plenty of room for him to pass astern of me as I sailed to the right hand side of the channel
- I never impeded the passage of his much larger boat
- He did not have to slow from his 5 knot speed to pass me

He says that all the captains he knows that operate out of our marina understand that a lot of unpowered sailboats sail up and down the channel and that it is very easy to pass them either direction with only minor changes in course.

He says the local custom has always been to let the sailboats sail.

I talked with another captain who runs a day sailing/charter operation from my dock. He averages 12 (yes twelve!) operations a week from our dock. He has been here since 1988 and at one time had five sailboats in day-charter service on our dock.

He too confirmed the local custom of yielding to unpowered sailboats. He frequently sails his very nimble catamaran up and down the channel and he is adamant that his sailboat in the channel had rights over a powerboat per Rule 18.

I then talked to a captain who manages five sailboats over 50' in length and two powerboats over 65' in length. The 65' powerboat and all the sailboats are in this marina. He also does all the yacht movements for a very large boat brokerage in our marina. He has operated out of this marina for five years.

He averages five operations a week from this marina. He also owns a 28' sailboat with no motor and the boat I was sailing.

He too confirmed the local custom of yielding to unpowered sailboats.

He too confirmed that his understanding of sailboats and his big boats in the channel is that he, when powering, must avoid a boat under sail in the channel per Rule 18. He also said that even his 57' sailboat with an 8' draft has no problem maneuvering around and passing or overtaking the numerous small boats in the channel.



The captain in question was hired by a company that just moved their charter operation to our marina and the day in question was his first day operating his boat in the channel.
The phrases "yielding" and "rights over" in our post make me think that you still don't really grasp the essence of handling collision avoidance under the Rules. There are no "rights over", and no one "yields". Giving-way is not the same as yielding on land.

A good seaman never, ever, ever asserts "rights over" in a crossing situation. Everyone does everything possible to avoid collisions and make everything work smoothly, whether or not what is necessary is specifically described in the rules.

Being the stand-on vessel is not a "right" which anyone can assert. It is more of a burden which requires you to hold still while the give-way vessel maneuvers to unwind the situation.

Bravo to the polite power boat skipper you encountered -- that's the right spirit. Cheerfully letting the sailboats sail, and giving them room to do so. He is obligated to do that, and understands his obligations, and doesn't resent following them.

And you have a similar obligation to cheerfully let the power boats power, and give them room to do so whenever and however you can. Luff up and let them go by if it looks like sailing on will force someone to maneuver or force you into close quarters. Remember the truck drivers who drive right off the road to let faster traffic go by. Stand on and keep sailing if the other skipper is giving you room to do so. But don't get hot and bothered if he doesn't -- just let him go by.
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Old 16-06-2014, 18:14   #59
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
<snip>



He says that all the captains he knows that operate out of our marina understand that a lot of unpowered sailboats sail up and down the channel and that it is very easy to pass them either direction with only minor changes in course.

<snip>

He too confirmed the local custom of yielding to unpowered sailboats. He frequently sails his very nimble catamaran up and down the channel and he is adamant that his sailboat in the channel had rights over a powerboat per Rule 18.

<snip>

He too confirmed the local custom of yielding to unpowered sailboats.

<snip>

He too confirmed that his understanding of sailboats and his big boats in the channel is that he, when powering, must avoid a boat under sail in the channel per Rule 18. He also said that even his 57' sailboat with an 8' draft has no problem maneuvering around and passing or overtaking the numerous small boats in the channel.
You have stated several times that you want a rule interpretation and then finally bring in 3 "local custom" arguments.

The guys posting (present company excepted perhaps) are all pretty smart guys and you are getting a pretty consistent interpretation.

Someone said the rules do not establish "rights" as much as they describe a sequencing of maneuvering.

A visiting boat would have no idea of local yore and gentelmanly agreements.

You also state you got to 15 yards - about 2 boat lengths before your "negotiation" ended and you (presumably) had to crash tack to avoid a collision.

had you simply "aimed" at his stern upon completing your tack this thread wouldn't exist.

Rule 18 does not apply in any way shape or form in this discussion. It's the first sentence in rule 18 for Pete's sake.

Not to add more complexity but when you tacked, he was past you. In racing sailing the perpendicular line made by his stern was ahead of your bow indicating "separation" This is critical in interpreting a lot of racing rules (room on marks etc.)

I could make a case that you were now passing him. The fact that after your tack you were "aimed" ahead of him is irrelevant. He is now the stand on vessel, you are the passing vessel and you need to keep clear...

(edit) BTW I gotta add this. There is no obligation by anyone to "negotiate" verbally in racing. I am always learning and I raced with a pretty successful (aussie) skipper a few times recently. He has a pretty brass mouth.

I had always shouted warnings at marks - "starboard", "overlap", "room please" - He berated me a bit and told me to shut up. I was taken aback a bit and observed. He would wait until the last second "crash imminent" and shout "F$$k of ya bastahd! Learn the "f$$$ing rules." The startled skipper "always" crash tacked, bore away etc.

This is rude and sometimes he took advantage of a "known" inexperienced skipper to gain rights he didn't have. He explained later that winning is about knowing the rules as much as everything else - in racing there is no obligation to negotiate - that's what protests and the race committee is for. I still struggle with a lot of the racing rules but I have learned my lesson. Know the rules.

Sorry for the diversion but in this case and 99% of all cases around the world in channels people figure out how to successfully share the water.

He was wrong for all the reasons cited. You were wrong for all the reasons cited. You probably will meet this guy on the water again. Can't we all just get along - LOL
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Old 16-06-2014, 19:55   #60
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

The more discussion ensues the more the dinghy is looking "wrong" albeit both skippers were at fault if the discussion is factually represented primarily because the other skippers intent WAS known. That is he was transiting the channel. Whereas you were simply sailing for pleasure which in a dinghy essentially means back and forth in this small channel. So what was it to you to pause BRIEFLY to let him pass. Luff for a second he gets the message and moves on while you then aim for his sten. No biggie. But if this was to learn the regs then it was successful in that regard.
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