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Old 15-06-2014, 23:40   #31
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
- A sailboat cannot sail in a narrow channel. he's wrong
- My vessel had no rights because I was sailing in a narrow channel - he's wrong
- He could pass with no consideration for my course because I was violating Rule 9b and was impeding his passage and therefore forfeited my rights - he's wrong

<snip>

- My vessel had no rights because I was sailing in a narrow channel - he's wrong
- My vessel was impeding his passage so he had no obligation to stay clear - he's wrong
- Rule 9e & 13 also did not apply because he was not overtaking - he's wrong

<snip>

- I was tacking up the channel so the overtaking rules in 13 do not apply and he could pass any way he felt was appropriate. - he's wrong
Now that we've cleared that up...

None of that makes you right.

You were both wrong. I judge him more so because he created the risk of collision event by slowing and turning in front of you - but that is my opinion. If this really went to court who knows what would come out of it.

Also "rights" are not something you have and can lose, like a wallet.

Even if you could lose your rights that doesn't mean he can now violate the regs.

Imagine on land...

"Aha. That guy is speeding. Quick Martha get the shotgun! He's lost his rights to not be murdered..."
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Old 15-06-2014, 23:47   #32
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Once there was a headstone in a cemetery. It read:

John Doe
1950 - 1990

"I Had the Right of Way"
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Old 15-06-2014, 23:55   #33
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

"A sailboat cannot sail in a narrow channel?"

Never heard that one. Sailboats sail up channels, up fairways, into fingers and all the way into their slips sometimes for crying out loud. And what are motorless dinghys supposed to do?

Seems like his entire argument is based upon that first assumption. In his mind the sailboat sailing in the fairway is in the wrong and therefore he is right no matter what transpired after that.

I might have asked him to show me where in the regs it says that, at which point you probably would have gotten into a theoretical argument about whether a Marina fairway meets the definition of a narrow or restricted channel.
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Old 16-06-2014, 01:03   #34
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

The colregs are subject to at least as much interpretation as the bible. This thread demonstrates that rather clearly.

As a set of regulations, that makes them useless.

As this thread (and the words of both skippers) demonstrates, trying to interpret these regulations when it matters, on the spot, at sea is as likely to cause a collision as it is to prevent one.

Clarity, consistency, common principles and wide application are all missing from the colregs, and all are necessary ingredients for the prevention of collisions.

It's a shame they have the force of law.
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Old 16-06-2014, 01:21   #35
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Once there was a headstone in a cemetery. It read:

John Doe
1950 - 1990

"I Had the Right of Way"
WHY do people keep making that inane remark?

I tacked away from other boat, I did not try to force the issue, and no collision occurred.

I am trying to understand the rules - not the right thing to do, which is exactly what I did:

I tacked before hitting the dock
I sailed to mid-channel
I asked the other captain if I could pass ahead
I got no response
I determined that trying to go astern of the other boat was risky
I tacked away from the other boat
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Old 16-06-2014, 01:36   #36
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Now that we've cleared that up...

None of that makes you right.

You were both wrong. I judge him more so because he created the risk of collision event by slowing and turning in front of you - but that is my opinion. If this really went to court who knows what would come out of it.

Also "rights" are not something you have and can lose, like a wallet.

Even if you could lose your rights that doesn't mean he can now violate the regs.

Imagine on land...

"Aha. That guy is speeding. Quick Martha get the shotgun! He's lost his rights to not be murdered..."
This is a perfect analysis!

First of all, there's no 9b situation here, so all the ordinary rules apply. He is not constrained by draft, so forget all of that. We wasted our time on that part of the analysis.

Ex-Calif hits the nail on the head, however -- all of his wrongness does not make you right. You used the phrase "right of way" -- you need to lose that. There's no such thing in the Colregs. The idea of stand-on vessel and give-way vessel does not confer any "right of way" on anyone. It merely establishes the sequence of maneuvering. In a way, the stand-on vessel is actually the one more burdened, because he is not allowed to maneuver during part of the collision avoidance process.

Remember Rule 2, which in many ways is the most important rule of all:

"2. Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case

(b) In construing and complying with these rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger."

Commentary from Wikipedia: "[Rule 2 is sometimes referred to as the "General Prudential" rule and provides for non-conformance with stated rules to prevent a collision, because what is paramount is to avoid or minimise the damaging effects of a collision, as opposed to blindly following the rules to the letter. The overall intent is to minimise actual collision taking place rather than rule compliance in and of itself, per se.]"


In my opinion, both of you violated this. He violated it grossly and blatantly with maneuvers which were unnecessary, made purely out of obnoxiousness, and which increased the risk of collision. If I were the judge, I would throw the book at him. It's one thing to violate a rule out of carelessness or ignorance; altogether a different one to intentionally create a dangerous situation just out of meanness. I would have his license -- I really would.

But I think as Ex-Calif pointed out, tacking across the whole width of the channel, even without a Rule 9b situation, and ignoring traffic behind, doing nothing to let it pass, is a violation of Rule 2. Tacking a small boat when other vessels are nearby is particularly heinous in my book because larger, less agile vessels can't predict what you're going to do and may not be able to avoid you. They can't plan a safe crossing with a small boat which is tacking.


The seamanlike way to deal with these situations is to be considerate of other traffic and do everything to make traffic work smoothly. The whole idea of "right of way" should be tossed overboard -- it has no place whatsoever at sea. Standing-on and giving-way is a dance -- if the other vessel is not dancing, then clear out, wait, go around, heave-to, or whatever. It's not like being on the road. If you see that your presence is causing another vessel difficulty, then do something to help out the other skipper. Get out of the way, heave to, wait, change course, whatever. If the other skipper is a jerk or doesn't know the rules -- don't worry about it -- it's not your problem. Smile and wave, get out of his way, keep clear, let him pass on. This is not just good manners, good style, and good seamanship, it is required by Rule 2. Never, never, never just proceed on your way heedless of the problems of the other skipper, just because you think he's supposed to give way. The COLREGS don't work like that. An argument about who is supposed to give way simply never occurs between two skippers with a reasonable level of seamanship.
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Old 16-06-2014, 02:01   #37
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
WHY do people keep making that inane remark?

I tacked away from other boat, I did not try to force the issue, and no collision occurred.

I am trying to understand the rules - not the right thing to do, which is exactly what I did:

I tacked before hitting the dock
I sailed to mid-channel
I asked the other captain if I could pass ahead
I got no response
I determined that trying to go astern of the other boat was risky
I tacked away from the other boat
Because that's what stubbornness can lead to. While you ultimately tacked away you seemed to push it as far as you could. You're way too concerned with wanting someone to tell you that he was wrong and you were right and we're not cooperating. And if people keep making that remark to you, then perhaps there is a reason. I didn't know others had made it to you. Do you have a history of that?

You asked him by yelling? Am I to assume you had no radio? Couldn't communicate in that way? Perhaps he tried to reach you by radio?

He was wrong. You were wrong. This has been answered many different ways for you. You pull out a rule book and want to go through it. Do you get road rage on the street by any chance or argue with the police?

It seems you just wanted everyone to say you were all right and him all wrong. Well, you've been answered. The rules are subject to interpretation including by the two different boats. We didn't witness any of it.
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Old 16-06-2014, 02:47   #38
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

I'm squarely with Dockhead on this. While you have a responsibility to avoid collisions and 9c "Ships must not cross a channel if to do so would impede another vessel which can navigate only within that channel."

He is the overtaking vessel and therefore the burden falls squarely on his shoulders rule 13.

One could argue that as a non-motorized boat sailing in a narrow channel - you are actually "restricted in your ability to maneuver" (rule 3g, which defines these as boats carrying out work - however it also includes the words "include but not limited to" meaning there can be other cases where a boat is restricted in its ability to maneuver.

Interesting puzzle - Certainly the fact that he wanted to get into his slip is of no consequence, neither is the fact that he wanted to travel faster up the channel than you could sail. Both arguments are false.

Both of you could be tied to the grate and lashed - but he should get a bigger taste of the cat.
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Old 16-06-2014, 06:45   #39
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
The captain finished the discussion by saying I have been a captain since 1982 and am currently a certified instructor for ColRegs, teach classes on a regular basis, and have sailed all the oceans of the world. It is apparent that you do not know your rules.
Now that is scary!

You might want to pull out rule 8(f)(iii):
Quote:
A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision
.

Even if he considered you to be impeding (although I say you were not), he was still obliged to follow the other rules. They are not overridden by the "impeding" clause.
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Old 16-06-2014, 06:50   #40
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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The ship gave a prolonged blast signifying the raised adrenaline of the pilot or master.
I'm not aware of where this signal is described in the rules. I have heard something like it a couple times. Too long to be a short blast, but not long enough to be a prolonged blast. Nowhere near a blind corner, and obviously not a vessel departing its berth. Is this a special signal used by pilots in the US?
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Old 16-06-2014, 07:05   #41
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

We could also look at rule 6a II + III

Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.
In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

(i) the state of visibility;
(ii) the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
(iii) the manoeuvrability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;

It is his responsibility to adjust his speed to the conditions present in the channel. His statement that since you were going slower (CMD) than he wanted to , you were impeding is obviously false. Speed, per se, in a channel does not constitute impediment.

A a sailing vessel you are, by definition considered to be less maneuverable than a power vessel - hence the reason that power must give way to sail (as a general rule). In this situation you were under sail (for what ever reason - had no engine, engine failure etc etc) As such you are less maneuverable than he is.
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Old 16-06-2014, 09:37   #42
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
We could also look at rule 6a II + III

Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.
In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

(i) the state of visibility;
(ii) the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
(iii) the manoeuvrability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;

It is his responsibility to adjust his speed to the conditions present in the channel. His statement that since you were going slower (CMD) than he wanted to , you were impeding is obviously false. Speed, per se, in a channel does not constitute impediment.

A a sailing vessel you are, by definition considered to be less maneuverable than a power vessel - hence the reason that power must give way to sail (as a general rule). In this situation you were under sail (for what ever reason - had no engine, engine failure etc etc) As such you are less maneuverable than he is.

I would not agree that rule 6 is that applicable here. Rule 6 is a general statement applying to all vessels.

The channel is clearly narrow, the other vessel itself cannot proceed outside it. hence clearly Rule 9 (b) applies. Equally clearly rule (13) also applies

dave
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Old 16-06-2014, 09:39   #43
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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A a sailing vessel you are, by definition considered to be less maneuverable than a power vessel
while this is often used manoeuvrability is not the key deciding definition in the colregs. In practice a Laser is considering some manoeuvrable then say a 40 foot motor cruiser.

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Old 16-06-2014, 09:51   #44
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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I would not agree that rule 6 is that applicable here. Rule 6 is a general statement applying to all vessels.

The channel is clearly narrow, the other vessel itself cannot proceed outside it. hence clearly Rule 9 (b) applies. Equally clearly rule (13) also applies

dave
The OP stated taht the Cat skipper opined that the OP was impeding because the OP was making 3.5 knots SOG CMG towards the end of the channel and the Cat skaipper wanted to go 5 knots.

Against that arguement - rule 6 comes into play. Although I agree rules 9 & 13 are the relevant rules.
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Old 16-06-2014, 10:25   #45
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Tacoma, which Marina are you discussing? I'm guessing it was the East Basin?
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