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Old 19-06-2014, 08:20   #136
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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13 pages? WOW! When I was an executive I had a rule. "If you can't say it on 1 piece of A4- you can't say it" 1 page summary. Throw all the supporting documentation at me you want - don't expect me to read it
Well, we don't use A4 in the US so that must be our problem...lol

I'm not referring to a document sent to me but a full presentation of a project or something to a group. Oh and maximum time of any meeting limited to one hour.
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Old 19-06-2014, 08:42   #137
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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Well, we don't use A4 in the US so that must be our problem...lol

I'm not referring to a document sent to me but a full presentation of a project or something to a group. Oh and maximum time of any meeting limited to one hour.
Oh agreed - anything more and I used to fall asleep - my snoring bothered the hell out of everyone else
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Old 19-06-2014, 09:15   #138
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

15 minutes is my limit.
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Old 19-06-2014, 09:41   #139
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

AnneTCrate says:
"Sociologically, all the pressure was put on the "new guy", even though TS hasn't been in SD all that long, if I remember correctly. So, here we have a new guy, and he's wanting to enter his slip for the first time, there are people around, and he really wants to get it right. I actually have been wondering, while all you guys were creating this interesting exposition on Colregs , why did not the catamaran guy respond verbally if they were 15 feet apart? Deaf? Concentrating, wanting to get it right?

Just saying conflicting egos doesn't really explain the incident and its sequelae, does it?"


Since the "incident" I have been approached by three other captains who spend a lot of time navigating the channel in big and little power and sailboats as part of their professional duties. They have been quite interested in keeping the matter "bubbling along" amongst the boat community here.

I now get the sense that I was used as a 'stalking horse' to purse a long standing agenda of which I was unaware.

The captain of the other boat works for a brokerage, charter, day trip business that had just moved five boats to our dock in the week before the incident. What I did not know was the same company had been asked to move to another marina due to similar episodes that repeatedly occurred about a decade ago. The rental/charter captains, back then, won quite a reputation for hitting boats, denying responsibility, and barging about the channel and marina.

The local captains who urged me on in this incident still have very bad and hard feelings about the events about 8 - 10 years ago. I have no idea if the other captain was part of the group years ago but each person who approached me this week asked "was XXXX the captain you had the problem with?" so I suspect I was the designated "new guy" making a point for them.

OH - I feel so used! ... and it was not nearly as fun as the lashes would be.

Live and Learn!
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Old 19-06-2014, 09:51   #140
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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I now get the sense that I was used as a 'stalking horse' to purse a long standing agenda of which I was unaware.

OH - I feel so used! ... and it was not nearly as fun as the lashes would be.
That is more than a little annoying when you find out those who feigned interest in you were actually promoting their own agenda.
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Old 19-06-2014, 10:40   #141
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Like politicians?
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Old 19-06-2014, 12:18   #142
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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It takes two to collide but only one to avoid a collision.
That's a great tag line ...
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Old 19-06-2014, 19:51   #143
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Most of the informative posts here describe how to sail in a courtroom. Sailing on the open sea would be a different matter without having the many people, as here, searching for the correct regulations that apply. I think that the poster of this thread had his problems start before he even got in his boat, at the planning stage. The plan was to tack up the channel using it's full width and all motorized traffic give way to him. The basic rule says power vessels give way to sailing, commercial fishing vessels, and vessels hampered by tasks such as dredging [Australia] However my logic says this plan is flawed in that you are in effect claiming the whole channel to yourself. A better plan would have been to give way to all oncomming traffic and any large boats travelling in your same directions. You could expect small draft manoeverable runabouts moving in the same direction to give way. However if you were to meet one such captain whose interpretation of the regulations says he can proceed on a collision course with you, then giving way would be best. With this procedure, the poster would have made it to his destination without incident and these ten pages on the forum would have been left blank.
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Old 19-06-2014, 21:53   #144
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Adventurebound said:
"I think that the poster of this thread had his problems start before he even got in his boat, at the planning stage. ...
with this procedure, the poster would have made it to his destination without incident"... you are in effect claiming the whole channel to yourself


The channel was the destination!

There was no plan - I was sailing a small dinghy - I go out, sail around the bay, and sail back to my slip. Who plans when taking a planning hull dinghy out for a sail in the open bay?

The channel is a dead end that runs into only our marina and is used only by pleasure craft heading to or from their personal slips. The largest boat in the marina is under 72'. The channel is not a route to anywhere. On a typical day one can sail in the channel for 20 or 30 minutes without seeing any other boat.

Six to eight sailing dinghies use the channel almost daily and six of those are sailed by folks that come to the dinghies from wheel chairs, walkers, or otherwise severe disabilities. The channel is where the handicapped sailing project feels the dinghies are safe from most large boats and they don't have to worry about their 15' dinghies with less than skilled, or experienced skippers being run down or harassed.

I imagine you did not know any of those details when you made your comments about sailing at sea.

When I sail in San Diego Bay or the channels leading into other commercial areas I would certainly take heed of your advice.

How could a 17' boat with a 4' beam possibly claim or exert a claim to a 150' wide channel? I was sailing at 5-knots at 45 degrees to the centerline so it would take me about 30 seconds to cross the channel after completing the tack. That means once I cross the centerline headed to one side, tack, and head back to the centerline - the other boat would have at least 45 seconds to pass me.

At 5-knots (the channel speed limit) the other boat would cover about 340 feet or 20 times the length of my boat. If he was 120 feet behind me when I cross the centerline in front of him (about 15 seconds from collision) he would be 220 feet (about 26 seconds) in front of me as I cross the centerline on the other tack.

How could you possibly think I am claiming the whole channel for myself?
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Old 19-06-2014, 22:06   #145
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

I assumed the layout of the channel had traffic staying to the right like on a road. Requiring all motorized traffic to give way to you would have you in command of a lot of the channel.
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Old 20-06-2014, 04:40   #146
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

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With this procedure, the poster would have made it to his destination without incident and these ten pages on the forum would have been left blank.
Actually we could have saved 5 if poor old TS didn't have to explain the situation 20 times -

No one has stated TS should not go sailing or return to his slip. Or that he should give way to everyone.

Of course one could go out and "avoid" everyone else but even that is unseamanlike and could cause a collision.

These guys were going 5 knots. What if they were two high speed ferries or just two pickle boats doing 25-30 knots each in a quartering head on situation. Closing speed is like 50-55kts. If the wrong guy turns the wrong way.

BTW - Singapore Straits - the ships literally are making max turns - They are closing each other at 60kts and they take 5 miles or more to stop. A Sailboat is crossing to Indonesia. The ultimate game of Frogger (or chicken...) exists because that giant hole you think you are going through disappears quickly...
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Old 20-06-2014, 18:37   #147
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

TS has posted a conspiracy theory concerning the power boat captain he had the incident with. If you find some captain is out to get you and is deliberately on a collision course to prove a point, simply give way. He will be cursing and swearing under his breath that he could not 'get you'. After a few trys, he will give up on you and maybe seek out another innocent sailer tacking up the channel. If he fails there, then it's only a matter of time as he sails to his last days of sanity.
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Old 20-06-2014, 19:18   #148
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Doesn't work with drivers, there's always another idiot to take their place.

Why would that work with sailors?
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Old 20-06-2014, 20:34   #149
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

Adventurebound said:
"TS has posted a conspiracy theory concerning the power boat captain he had the incident with."

Sorry - the conspiracy was not that interesting.

I said some of the local captains (NOT the one I had the problem with) had a prior history with the captain I interacted with and the local captains may have used me to push the issue that a long time ago there were problems.

No one was out to get anyone - it was just two skippers who disagreed on the application of Rules 9, 13, and 18

Nothing more dramatic than that and I think this thread easily shows there are many ways to interpret the rules and the situation.

There was no evil or malicious intent - just a difference of opinion/
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Old 21-06-2014, 17:20   #150
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Re: Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing

OK, up to page 8/10, still haven't seen it.
The thing about htis that worries me for the future is the apparent ATTITUDE of the cat skipper (as filtered through TacomaS's writings of course). The blame game looks to be 80/20 on the cat wrangler, IMO.

That out of the way, however, I perceive the cat boss as seeming to have an "attitude", and this bodes ill for his future interactions in what is a very congested, laid back area with a wide range of skill levels and perhaps no history of conflicts until this. There are a whole list of descriptive adjectives I could insert here to describe the new chief 'maran wrangler, but I'll save them for another comment (if ever).

An attitude like that, if it continues, will surely result in trouble down the channel sooner or later, and I worry for some inexperienced kid on an Optimist dingy or something who winds up on the wrong side of Captain Attitude. This will not end well unless Cap't A eases up some, and soon.
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