Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-06-2014, 11:04   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 83
Motor Sailing Display

Like the anchor ball, of course, displayed at anchor, the USCG also mandates a black conical shape with the apex pointing down, to be displayed on vessels 40 ft and greater while motor sailing. I have never heard of one, never mind seen one before. Is it enforced? Or is it an old publication I was reading.

Just Curious....

Sailing Vessels Under Power
During the day, vessels under sail that
are also being propelled by machinery,
must exhibit forward, where it can best
be seen, a black conical shape with the
apex pointing down (See Figure 10 )
__________________

__________________
Imprezza72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2014, 11:09   #2
Registered User
 
sparrowhawk1's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Miami Beach Fl
Boat: Colombia Cc 11.8
Posts: 1,252
It's a coloregs rule. I could look in my copy to tell you exactly which one, but I've never seen it enforced
__________________

__________________
sparrowhawk1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2014, 11:37   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
Re: Motor Sailing Display

I saw it at least once on a commercial vessel. But it's rare.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2014, 11:50   #4
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 2,985
Re: Motor Sailing Display

25(e).

Same for Int'l and US Inland, except in the latter, not required for vessels under 12m.

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2014, 11:51   #5
Registered User
 
sparrowhawk1's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Miami Beach Fl
Boat: Colombia Cc 11.8
Posts: 1,252
That's colregs. Damn spell check
__________________
sparrowhawk1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2014, 22:32   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Motor Sailing Display

I chartered a boat that had a ball rigged up to a halyard on the spreader. Spent 3 days trying to untie the knot used to secure it "down" so I could hoist it.

Never seen a charter boat with an cone on board.

If some over-exuberant newbie harbor patrolman wants to give me a ticket? Price of life, I guess...

We travel to Indonesia and Malaysia a bit. I didn't in the past but do now display country and Q flags appropriately - not many recreational skippers do though. no one seems to get too excited about flags, signals and hoists I guess.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2014, 22:53   #7
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Re: Motor Sailing Display

It's exceedingly rare (never seen one myself) compared to the rare recreational use of the anchor ball. A professional anchored in a designated "general anchorage" with anchor ball displayed:

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2014, 23:02   #8
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Re: Motor Sailing Display

The only time I've seen a private craft display the anchor ball was in Panama. Most likely, the boat was run by professionals.

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2014, 23:46   #9
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,465
Re: Motor Sailing Display

Well, Mark, we have routinely displayed the anchor ball for some years now, but do not display (or even own) the motorsailing cone. I have never seen a recreational vessel with that symbol displayed in any of the many countries and regions that we have sailed in.

We are slightly over the 12 meter length, so could be cited, I guess... but I doubt if any of the water cops have heard about that revenue stream! Meanwhile, I have better things to worry about!

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2014, 00:38   #10
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,941
Images: 1
Re: Motor Sailing Display

The rule is 25 (e):

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.


We had this discussion recently on another thread. Apparently, almost no americans have ever seen, much less own or use, one.

Certainly in europe, you will find them in use. Germany and Sweden in particular. And both German and Swedish coast guards can be sticky about this. They will fine you.

I have one and I normally fly it if I'm motoring along with a sail up.

The rule says it should be exhibited forward. I can't do this easily on my boat so I fly it from the starboard spreader.

Regarding anchor balls - I shamelessly admit I fly it when I anchor.

But then, I'm a nerd when it comes to things like this
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2014, 01:18   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,465
Re: Motor Sailing Display

Carsten, I must admit curiosity: how do the policing agents know that you have your propeller engaged when they fine you? Seems a bit hard to prove in many cases... engine running but not driving the boat, thus you are not being propelled by machinery... just charging my batteries, officer!

Sure, if it is a dead calm one can suspect engagement if the boat is moving. but much of the time it would be a hard call.

Just wondering...

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2014, 03:32   #12
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,941
Images: 1
Re: Motor Sailing Display

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Carsten, I must admit curiosity: how do the policing agents know that you have your propeller engaged when they fine you? Seems a bit hard to prove in many cases... engine running but not driving the boat, thus you are not being propelled by machinery... just charging my batteries, officer!

Sure, if it is a dead calm one can suspect engagement if the boat is moving. but much of the time it would be a hard call.

Just wondering...

Jim
Jim

Of course you are correct. Every case would be subject to discussion. But if you're stopped, then they have all the excuses in the world to continue looking for violations e.g. balck water tanks, PFDs, etc etc etc.

I haven't met the man personally, but one poor boater was fined by the swedish coast guard for sailing in swedish waters without flying Danish flag (as required unless you are participating in a race). I heard he was particularly obnoxious to the coast guard (a little politness goes a loong way when confronting authorities).

Like it or not - it is a rule and they can enforce it at their discretion.

I should note here that I have never had any run-ins or incidents with any coast guard.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2014, 03:41   #13
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Frostproof, Fl boat at Tampa Sailing Squadron
Boat: Searunner, 37'
Posts: 216
Re: Motor Sailing Display

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
The rule is 25 (e):

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.


We had this discussion recently on another thread. Apparently, almost no americans have ever seen, much less own or use, one.

Certainly in europe, you will find them in use. Germany and Sweden in particular. And both German and Swedish coast guards can be sticky about this. They will fine you.

I have one and I normally fly it if I'm motoring along with a sail up.

The rule says it should be exhibited forward. I can't do this easily on my boat so I fly it from the starboard spreader.

Regarding anchor balls - I shamelessly admit I fly it when I anchor.

But then, I'm a nerd when it comes to things like this
I too use both the ball and the cone when I am traveling in the ICW. I don't use it locally where I sail though but my boat has been in the boatyard almost two years getting a rebuild. Maybe this year I will get to use my anchor ball in some quiet cove.
__________________
John B.
https://buildingmytrimaran.shutterfly.com/
blewett_john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2014, 04:03   #14
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Motor Sailing Display

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Carsten, I must admit curiosity: how do the policing agents know that you have your propeller engaged when they fine you? Seems a bit hard to prove in many cases... engine running but not driving the boat, thus you are not being propelled by machinery... just charging my batteries, officer!

Sure, if it is a dead calm one can suspect engagement if the boat is moving. but much of the time it would be a hard call.

Just wondering...

Jim
It is often possible to tell for sure that you're motor sailing. Water coming out the exhaust, speed not possible under sail in those conditions, or sails not drawing.

As Carsten said, it's enforced in Germany and Netherlands at least.

I use my motoring cone most of the time, even in the UK (where there seems to be no enforcement) just because it shows consideration to other people on the sea -- they know that you will not be standing-on in cases where they might otherwise need to give way to a sailing vessel. If I don't use it, it's just because there's no other traffic around.

It's just plain courtesy, and besides that reduces confusion. If I'm the give-way vessel, then I want to maneuver and don't want the other vessel to be confused and maneuver at the same time, screwing up my solution.

I always use my anchoring ball when anchored in daylight. I do not want somebody to sail into me and then say that they thought I was under way and avoiding them. In the U.S., I would even be worried about liability. I am really surprised that so many of you guys don't use anchor balls. In Europe they seem to be pretty much universally used, even where's there's no enforcement. Mine is always at the ready at the base of my mast, already rigged to my port side flag halyard. I change it for the motoring cone when necessary.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2014, 04:06   #15
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,941
Images: 1
Re: Motor Sailing Display

There seems to be a laisse-faire attitude towards daytime signals in the US. Considering what we hear (on CF) about the zealousness of enforcement re: PFD's and safety inspections - I'm surprised at law enforcement's apparent nonchalant attitude.
__________________

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
motor, sail, sailing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Motor boat plus a sail boat equils a Motor sailer? niel12 Multihull Sailboats 11 02-07-2011 13:15
Motor Sailing Dos and Don'ts theway Monohull Sailboats 86 10-05-2011 10:47
Motor Sailing and Heeling sailorboy1 General Sailing Forum 9 30-09-2009 14:10
Motor or No Motor for Long-Term Cruising? boatyard Pirate Construction, Maintenance & Refit 41 02-08-2009 22:13
Integrated Sailing instruments display? kenackr Marine Electronics 2 13-03-2007 23:16



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:07.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.