Monroe wants to close Upper Keys Dock to Dingys

[dave c]

Read this article and send an email to the Monroe County Commissioners and let them know not all cruisers want to use bad language and bath naked in their fountains. We just want access to local businesses to eat, drink and re supply. The links are : Key Largo liveaboards beg to keep access - KeysNet.com and Monroe County, FL - Official Website is the one to reach the commishes.

[Dulcesuenos]

That would truly be a shame, i have to ask is this boaters doing this or is it homeless? And have the "law abiding" boaters been proactive in addressing that behavior when they see it? I for one would if i knew it was gojng to give the rest of us a bad rap.

[denverd0n]

Unfortunately, once again this demonstrates how it only takes one or two bad apples to spoil things for everyone.

[pbiJim]

The keys...have a variety of inhabitants. Some of them are not the most ...traditionally well behaved. This is not the way that I would choose to deal with the issue.

[Svdestiny]

It's the homeless. I've anchored off tarpon basin, at one pt for a few weeks, and yeah, like many anchorages in florida there is a "significant" bum boat contingent.

They are the local poor, living on derelict boats. Some of them do behave in ways that would annoy the locals and nearby law enforcement ie drinking in the park, showering in the park using water hoses, "congregating" for hours in groups in the shade. Some were pleasant, clean, some were loud, drunk, "crazy ". a couple of the nicer ones warned us about crackheads on some of the boats.

Not sure what we could have done to "clean up" the situation...we weren't about to tell them to behave better, or join AA, or just say no. They could t care less what we thought and some of them were downright scary/crazy.

It's a big problem here in the keys. It's a problem for us "transients" looking to provision, go to restaurants, walk the dogs. It's a problem for the poor with no housing options, it's a problem for communities unable to deal with the icky homeless (that was sarcasm for those of you who don't come from New York)

Meanwhile, tho it can be beautiful in spots, between the bum boats and the crab pots, I would give the keys a miss.

[valhalla360]

I have mixed feelings on this one. As much as I like an occasional free dock, if you aren't contributing to the local economy, you better be a model citizen or expect to be pushed away. While they can't stop you from anchoring, they can close off access which accomplishes the same thing.

Maybe a compromise would be $5/day or $20/wk for dingy dockage with the money to fund a shower building and other cruiser ammenities. This would likely run off the bad apples and cruisers would get better facilities.

[zboss]

Are not the dinghy docks mostly private (bars, hotels, and whatnot)? What docks are we speaking about here?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I have mixed feelings on this one. As much as I like an occasional free dock, if you aren't contributing to the local economy, you better be a model citizen or expect to be pushed away. While they can't stop you from anchoring, they can close off access which accomplishes the same thing.

Maybe a compromise would be $5/day or $20/wk for dingy dockage with the money to fund a shower building and other cruiser ammenities. This would likely run off the bad apples and cruisers would get better facilities.

My feelings too, and maybe a small daily charge and/or some sort of pre-purchased transient dock pass for the area would be a solution.

For many areas, transient boaters are good for business - we're generally affluent, we eat out, we browse the stores, we go to their summerstock theatre, we buy supplies, etc. (we did all of the above last week) And we return, and we tell our friends, if it was a good experience.

[Svdestiny]

At tarpon basin there is a nice big anchorage, shallow in spots wwith variable holding. There is the key largo municipal building, complete with sheriffs office and a lovely little park with dinghy docks, shaded park tables, access to water, dumpster, wifi.. Walking distance to supermarket, ups, library, restaurants, hardware store, busses to Miami or marathon. They even have a pumpout boat with FREE pumpout. It's a nice easy stop when you are going up or down the keys on the inside.

however, the bum boats,which have been pushed out of other areas, also like it here and some hang out all day/night at the park, scaring away the local families who don't feel like picnicking or kayaking with the homeless. There re also those who liveaboard and work nearby, and there is the occasional boater who wants to stop temporarily to provision, eat out etc.

Another example of throwing out the baby with the bath water. Instead of dealing with the "bad apples" ( homeless, derelict boats, antisocial behavior) lets deny access to everyone. Thats how they do it in Florida--they're not big thinkers.

The derelict boats? Carefully define them then legally remove.
Antisocial behavior? Increase policing, ticketing
HOMELESS? Got me there. Where do we put them? My favorite is the homeless mentally ill veteran, lots of them in the keys.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Svdestiny

It's the homeless. I've anchored off tarpon basin, at one pt for a few weeks, and yeah, like many anchorages in florida there is a "significant" bum boat contingent.

They are the local poor, living on derelict boats. Some of them do behave in ways that would annoy the locals and nearby law enforcement ie drinking in the park, showering in the park using water hoses, "congregating" for hours in groups in the shade. Some were pleasant, clean, some were loud, drunk, "crazy ". a couple of the nicer ones warned us about crackheads on some of the boats.

Not sure what we could have done to "clean up" the situation...we weren't about to tell them to behave better, or join AA, or just say no. They could t care less what we thought and some of them were downright scary/crazy.

It's a big problem here in the keys. It's a problem for us "transients" looking to provision, go to restaurants, walk the dogs. It's a problem for the poor with no housing options, it's a problem for communities unable to deal with the icky homeless (that was sarcasm for those of you who don't come from New York)

Homelessness is a major problem and its not going away. I remember when St. Petersburg/Tampa had tents on sidewalks. Believe the cities moved them to other "acceptable" areas.

So is having them on boats worse?

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Homelessness is a major problem and its not going away. I remember when St. Petersburg/Tampa had tents on sidewalks. Believe the cities moved them to other "acceptable" areas.

So is having them on boats worse?

Creeping Fascism is a real danger to the U.S..

1. fascism


The only official definition of Fascism comes from Benito Mussolini, the founder of fascism, in which he outlines three principles of a fascist philosophy.
1."Everything in the state". The Government is supreme and the country is all-encompasing, and all within it must conform to the ruling body, often a dictator.
2."Nothing outside the state". The country must grow and the implied goal of any fascist nation is to rule the world, and have every human submit to the government.
3."Nothing against the state". Any type of questioning the government is not to be tolerated. If you do not see things our way, you are wrong. If you do not agree with the government, you cannot be allowed to live and taint the minds of the rest of the good citizens.
The use of militarism was implied only as a means to accomplish one of the three above principles, mainly to keep the people and rest of the world in line. Fascist countries are known for their harmony and lack of internal strife. There are no conflicting parties or elections in fascist countries.

What we boaters need or want is of no consequence. Same with the homeless.

[Svdestiny]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Homelessness is a major problem and its not going away. I remember when St. Petersburg/Tampa had tents on sidewalks. Believe the cities moved them to other "acceptable" areas.

So is having them on boats worse?

Actually I think being on a derelict boat is preferable to a tent if you are strong enough. But the problem is lack of housing and poverty and lack of effective mental health care. It is not a boating problem it is a community problem. The reason we discuss it here it cuz budget boaters get squeezed out due to bum boats/homeless. The locals dont want any of us. They don't mind a few "wealthier" boaters passing thru though

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

My feelings too, and maybe a small daily charge and/or some sort of pre-purchased transient dock pass for the area would be a solution.

For many areas, transient boaters are good for business - we're generally affluent, we eat out, we browse the stores, we go to their summerstock theatre, we buy supplies, etc. (we did all of the above last week) And we return, and we tell our friends, if it was a good experience.

When fee systems are imposed, it is often designed to preclude people who can't afford the fee. It is intentionally discriminatory and has no place in America.

This kind of attitude is why fees everywhere, not just in the U.S. are increasing. The apparent 'affluence' you speak of is seen as justification for these increases. The flashy, expensive boats people drive. The way money is thrown at transporters who will sit most of the day waiting for the 'easy' money, rather than going out and doing their job in the same manner as other transporters. Well, it affects those of us who aren't showing up in flashy, expensive boats. Especially those of us who sail alone. We don't get to share these expenses with others.

Affluence should not be a measure of worth between boaters and communities. Nor should it be a measure of worth between Americans, homeless or not. We live in a country where everyone is entitled to the same treatment by governments - and it is the governments who are whittling our rights to access and anchor away. A business can refuse service and usually get away with it. Our local, state and federal governments must be held to a higher standard. Problem is, none of us are demanding that.

You get what you deserve if you are not involved.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Wrong

Affluence should not be a measure of worth between boaters and communities. Nor should it be a measure of worth between Americans, homeless or not. We live in a country where everyone is entitled to the same treatment by governments - and it is the governments who are whittling our rights to access and anchor away. A business can refuse service and usually get away with it. Our local, state and federal governments must be held to a higher standard. Problem is, none of us are demanding that.

You get what you deserve if you are not involved.

Be careful what you ask for. They are doing exactly what you just asked for. Everyone is going to be treated equally: Ie: No one will get to dock there.

Then again affluence has always made a difference. Show me some point in history when humans lived a utopian existance where everyone was treated equally regardless of thier contributions to society. When we choose to live the cruising lifestyle, we must understand that we are beyond the comprehension of most people. The burden is on us to show how we are a productive and useful member of society if we want them to make allowances for us. This may not be "right" but it is reality.

Homelessness is a difficult problem but in the same vein, I'm sure if a local homeowner came down and started showing in the fountain, they would look for ways to chase him out also.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Be careful what you ask for. They are doing exactly what you just asked for. Everyone is going to be treated equally: Ie: No one will get to dock there.

If so, it is because boaters are a bunch of wimps who won't demand they be distinguished from the source of perceived problems. It is because we live in a society that just can't get it's act together caring for people who are homeless - many of whom have psychological problems. Do you prefer living in a country that wantonly discriminates against the poor and mentally ill? Or, would you rather our government, and yes, citizens took responsibility for helping these people? I'd rather everyone be prevented from docking than encouraging a trend that is just plain wrong in American governance and discourages individuals from taking responsibility.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Then again affluence has always made a difference. Show me some point in history when humans lived a utopian existance where everyone was treated equally regardless of thier contributions to society. When we choose to live the cruising lifestyle, we must understand that we are beyond the comprehension of most people. The burden is on us to show how we are a productive and useful member of society if we want them to make allowances for us. This may not be "right" but it is reality.

Maybe your perspective would be different if YOU were on the other side of the affluency scale and or also homeless.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Homelessness is a difficult problem but in the same vein, I'm sure if a local homeowner came down and started showing in the fountain, they would look for ways to chase him out also.

No comparison. Government and local homeowners are not the same, by a long shot.