Monroe wants to close Upper Keys Dock to Dingys

[dave c]

Make sure you guys are emailing the County Commission too, I pointed out to them that I see all these commercials on Tv visit the Fl Keys and did not notice any thing about boaters not being welcome! Let them have it we are tourists too and whether they like it or not we help pay their bills!

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Wrong

If so, it is because boaters are a bunch of wimps who won't demand they be distinguished from the source of perceived problems. It is because we live in a society that just can't get it's act together caring for people who are homeless - many of whom have psychological problems. Do you prefer living in a country that wantonly discriminates against the poor and mentally ill? Or, would you rather our government, and yes, citizens took responsibility for helping these people? I'd rather everyone be prevented from docking than encouraging a trend that is just plain wrong in American governance and discourages individuals from taking responsibility.



Maybe your perspective would be different if YOU were on the other side of the affluency scale and or also homeless.



No comparison. Government and local homeowners are not the same, by a long shot.

I cannot follow your logic! Are you a "have" complaining that we are not doing enough for the disadvantaged? Or are you a "have not" complaining for more and more from the few who pay taxes???

Some years ago do-gooders felt that everyone residing under government care in mental hospitals deserved to be integrated into society. Now look at society! The hospitals are closed, the problems were simply moved to the streets.

Just recently unemployment checks continued for 90 months!!! I listened to many of those unemployed who complained "why should I get a job when I get almost as much collecting unemployment benefits?" Now that those benefits are being restrained we see a huge move to SSI, so many that the Social Security system is strained to near collapse.

There are no easy buzword answers to these social problems

Foggy

[Astrid]

It's the homeless. I've anchored off tarpon basin, at one pt for a few weeks, and yeah, like many anchorages in florida there is a "significant" bum boat contingent.

Kind of threw me for a loop--bumboat was slang for a lighter, tender, or small craft used to ferry supplies out to a ship anchored away from a quay.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by foggysail

I cannot follow your logic! Are you a "have" complaining that we are not doing enough for the disadvantaged? Or are you a "have not" complaining for more and more from the few who pay taxes???

Some years ago do-gooders felt that everyone residing under government care in mental hospitals deserved to be integrated into society. Now look at society! The hospitals are closed, the problems were simply moved to the streets.

Just recently unemployment checks continued for 90 months!!! I listened to many of those unemployed who complained "why should I get a job when I get almost as much collecting unemployment benefits?" Now that those benefits are being restrained we see a huge move to SSI, so many that the Social Security system is strained to near collapse.

There are no easy buzword answers to these social problems

Foggy

Your refrain sounds just like the drivel my friend the multi-millionaire espouses every day. Not worthy of a response.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Some years ago do-gooders felt that everyone residing under government care in mental hospitals deserved to be integrated into society. Now look at society! The hospitals are closed, the problems were simply moved to the streets.

No "do-gooder" worthy of his/her Birkenstocks campaigned for having the mentally ill simply lobbed into the streets and abandoned. It's therapeutically better AND more cost-effective to deal with most of the mentally-ill in a community setting, but apparently your bean-counters left out that part of the program. Alot of that social load got dumped from federal and state governments onto city governments, without a funds transfer to accompany it.

The abandonment of mentally ill vets pretty much tells you how badly the ball was dropped.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Wrong

This kind of attitude is why fees everywhere, not just in the U.S. are increasing. The apparent 'affluence' you speak of is seen as justification for these increases. The flashy, expensive boats people drive. The way money is thrown at transporters who will sit most of the day waiting for the 'easy' money, rather than going out and doing their job in the same manner as other transporters. Well, it affects those of us who aren't showing up in flashy, expensive boats. Especially those of us who sail alone. We don't get to share these expenses with others.

Well... other than those living on derelict boats, most boaters ARE better off in most ways than the average landlocked person, statistically speaking.

When governments are tightening their belts, they always cast around for untapped income sources, so additional fees are inevitable. So that behaviour shouldn't surprise anyone.

Anyways, I'm sure that if the US boating community can speak with a unified voice on this, you will be able to influence them.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Well... other than those living on derelict boats, most boaters ARE better off in most ways than the average landlocked person, statistically speaking.

When governments are tightening their belts, they always cast around for untapped income sources, so additional fees are inevitable. So that behaviour shouldn't surprise anyone.

Anyways, I'm sure that if the US boating community can speak with a unified voice on this, you will be able to influence them.

Your comment begs further examination. Statistics please. And it will be more useful if you break 'boaters' down into groups. People who keep their boats in marinas, rarely use them except as party platforms - preventing others who use their boats to get a slip. Especially live aboards. Did I mention live aboards? Full time cruisers. Etc, etc.

As you may expect, some won't ever complain about rising fees because they wouldn't even notice the rise given their financial resources. Then there are the rest of us.

From your perspective it may appear boaters are financially well off. Well, have I got news for you...

[dave c]

Sorry to get everybody all stirred up anyway just got an email from some Monroe Commissioners and it seems they are going to do the right thing and step up law enforcement and allow people to use the dock there. When I was there a year ago for 3 days I only met nice cruising folk and the park was clean and close walking distance to 2 great restaurants, Dhookers and Upper Crust Pizza. I also walked a mile to Publix and got some groceries. I do not like being told I can not use an area while all over the rest of the Keys, especially Key West I have seen bad behavior, drunkeness, and even pubilc nudity, and they do not shut off the roads coming in to the Keys and stop all these people so why am I turned away.

[Lake-Effect]

I'm pretty comfortable with the broad generalization that the average boater is better off than the average person. I didn't say they are all "financially well off".

I agree that there's the wrong perception outside of boating that it is only a rich (white) man's sport. Anyway this is an unhelpful digression.

Has any US recreational boating group taken a position? I imagine they would have some influence and the tourism stats to help change some minds.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Some years ago do-gooders felt that everyone residing under government care in mental hospitals deserved to be integrated into society. Now look at society! The hospitals are closed, the problems were simply moved to the streets.

There are no easy buzword answers to these social problems

Regan and his ilk defunded the hospitals and threw them out on the streets. More trickle down nonsense.

Easy answers? Fund the hospitals.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'm pretty comfortable with the broad generalization that the average boater is better off than the average person. I didn't say they are all "financially well off".

I agree that there's the wrong perception outside of boating that it is only a rich (white) man's sport. Anyway this is an unhelpful digression.

Has any US recreational boating group taken a position? I imagine they would have some influence and the tourism stats to help change some minds.

Aha! So, statistical has emerged to mean you have a sense about it. A 'broad generalization' that the average boater is better off..." But, not "financially well off"? Begs for more meaning me thinks. What's the difference between being a boater who is better off or financially well off?

Yes, there are efforts targeting limited areas, but what's needed is a national declaration of boater access and anchoring rights. Not piecemeal.

In the San Francisco Bay area, most restrictions are in response to boaters in marinas who've complained about anchor outs who occupy spots where the 'haves' want to anchor. It is less a matter of derelict boats, which isn't to say there were none, it' is that there weren't as many as in say, Florida. It is a clearer case of those who feel entitled to a weekend anchorage against those who have made a lifestyle choice to live aboard and anchor out.

Most people affected by limited access rules and anchoring restrictions are people who do not keep their boats in marinas. People like myself who've lived on the hook for 20 years, whether in San Francisco, Mexico or Australia. We're the ones who feel the pain the most, not the marina bound boater who'll be in the anchorage over the weekend or may be passing through.

The problem in a nut shell is, the people who made the lifestyle choice did so because they had enough of the "in the face" life they were leading. They don't want to be embroiled in controversy and always fighting the bureaucracy, or anyone else for that matter. Not good candidates for taking on municipalities that impose anchoring restrictions.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Wrong

Aha! So, statistical has emerged to mean you have a sense about it. A 'broad generalization' that the average boater is better off..." But, not "financially well off"? Begs for more meaning me thinks. What's the difference between being a boater who is better off or financially well off?

Wow, talk about gnat-hair-splitting. whatever. I'll drop it.

Ok, we now know that you're a 100% liveaboard in the US, on the hook, on a modest budget, and will likely be more influenced by this sort of legislation than others whom we might as a group call "the average boater". Oooo, there's that word again, sorry.

Seriously, I better appreciate your point of view. Since you're in the life, can you give us a better idea of how many similar folks this is likely to affect. Also, what's your sense of how many of the 'on the hook' folks in the discussed area are actually the troublemakers, or are the troublemakers even from the boats?

[Svdestiny]

Originally Posted by dave c

Sorry to get everybody all stirred up anyway just got an email from some Monroe Commissioners and it seems they are going to do the right thing and step up law enforcement and allow people to use the dock there. When I was there a year ago for 3 days I only met nice cruising folk and the park was clean and close walking distance to 2 great restaurants, Dhookers and Upper Crust Pizza. I also walked a mile to Publix and got some groceries. I do not like being told I can not use an area while all over the rest of the Keys, especially Key West I have seen bad behavior, drunkeness, and even pubilc nudity, and they do not shut off the roads coming in to the Keys and stop all these people so why am I turned away.

Because they don't mind if tourists pee in public, vomit on the sidewalk etc, they dont want the HOMELESS in their park. They don't want to look at them they don't want to think about them they don't want to have ANYTHING to do with them. And they group the homeless using the dinghy dock with cruisers, anchor outs, Weekend boaters, anyone using the dinghy dock because it is easier than actually thinking.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Wow, talk about gnat-hair-splitting. whatever. I'll drop it.

Just a reflection of my training and background. No offence meant.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Ok, we now know that you're a 100% liveaboard in the US, on the hook, on a modest budget, and will likely be more influenced by this sort of legislation than others whom we might as a group call "the average boater". Oooo, there's that word again, sorry.

Seriously, I better appreciate your point of view. Since you're in the life, can you give us a better idea of how many similar folks this is likely to affect. Also, what's your sense of how many of the 'on the hook' folks in the discussed area are actually the troublemakers, or are the troublemakers even from the boats?

Not having visited everywhere with folks living on the hook, I can't begin to guess about numbers of people affected. But, there is no doubt ill conceived restrictions on anchoring and access go beyond affecting boaters like myself. Perhaps not as severely, since most boaters who'd complain about us will return to a marina with all the bells and whistles. It is merely a passing inconvenience for them. But for those of us who live the live aboard anchor out lifestyle, these restrictions are more than an inconvenience. They may well make it impossible for us to continue living the way we prefer. Devastating.

Actually, beyond encountering anchored boats in need of maintenance or repair, I've never seen anyone on the boats make any kind of trouble - except the presence of their boat gives rise to complaints from the weekend boater who wants their spot... The weekenders write the likes of Latitude 38 complaining about the derelicts and lack of spots to anchor. The complain loudly enough these restrictions are put in place. To put it bluntly, this is patently unfair. Wrong. (no pun intended).

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Regan and his ilk defunded the hospitals and threw them out on the streets. More trickle down nonsense.

Easy answers? Fund the hospitals.

How does a country that is approaching an 18 trillion dollar debt, spending 85 billion a month in stimulus spending(Bernanke), borrowing voraciously from China, printing money at breakneck speed which further devalues the dollar and increases inflation pay for your generous humanity? And, did you know our 40th president of the US name was Reagan, not Regan? And did you know that "trickle down" has nothing to do with government funding but rather the concept that as people at the top make more money there is a historic and recordable "trickle down effect" that stimulates job growth, investment and consumer spending for lower income groups that want to work and participate in the system? Your response is truly "voodoo economics" of the most absurd reasoning based in emotion and lacking any conceivable economic viability. SVDestiny is exactly correct in his assessments about the homeless "bums" and they are based upon first hand experience, logic and reason-- concepts the America Haters and professional whiners just don't get. We can't help everyone in the world. We can't even help everyone in our country. But we can try to help those who want to participate in the system and try to help themselves. There's not a bum in any homeless encampment I've ever seen that didn't want to be there. It's their choice because even as broke as we've become in our soon to be bankrupt Utopian Society of compassion for the downtrodden(ie; those that don't or won't work but prefer to be wards of the State at the taxpayer's expense) there is real help if they want it. As a postscript, I have one last comment: those who are successful should not be punished for being so. It is not American, It is not our History, but rather the history of the failed Communist societies in Russia and Red China. The successful citizens of our country have not created poverty, homelessness, the welfare state,welfare cheats, illegal immigration, unconscionable Black on Black murder rates, the decay of our inner cities, the failure of our public education system, the loss of jobs,and our fragile failing economy--that was created by an ineffective and corrupt government who failed the American people by unconscionable spending, government over regulation and an unfair tax system that dictates a small group of Makers pays for the growing, unstoppable hordes of Takers. No decent human being lacks compassion. However, the Utopian concept of Sir Thomas More has come to represent the naivete of humanity rather than the common sense of reality.