Marine Diesel Regulations

[bstreep]

Originally Posted by malbert73

What does everyone think of the last sentence?
I was wondering about ULSD with theoretically less lubricants in the fuel. I called Mack Boring about my Yanmar and they thought I could use cetane additive to be safe.

Boat US just had an article about ULSD. They said that in a survey of diesel specialists, they've found no problems relating to this - it's an urban legend. They have replaced the lubricating properties of sulphur with additives.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Boat US just had an article about ULSD. They said that in a survey of diesel specialists, they've found no problems relating to this - it's an urban legend. They have replaced the lubricating properties of sulphur with additives.

Deprnds on what study you read. I have read several and it seems split because the lubricity standards were changed to meet the tests in some cases. The lubricity standard is so close to the minimum accepted (yes meeting it) that some diesel manufacturers, dealers owners all suggest supplementing.

I'm not positive but it may be like ethanol in gas...the distributer adds it at the distribution point and several independent testers in my area found the ethanol content t never exceed 5% which means most people are driving with low octane....because car computers can handle this...no big deal but lubricity in diesels will determine long term wear...

[Talbot]

Red diesel in Europe is rather more emotive. In UK the fuel at the docks is red. This signifies a lower rate of duty and is used for heating and field use (and commercial fishermen). It also used to be for marine use to persuade boaters to move away from petrol as there had been a lot of fires in the early petrol engined boats. The EU forced UK to charge full duty to leisure boaters. However, the marine tanks also needed to supply the commercial fishermen.

The UK solution was to allow leisure sailors to declare a maximum percentage being used for heating (which was at a lower tax level). Unfortunately they continued to colour the fuel red. Some European countries (particularly Netherlands) get really upset at this "infringement of regulations" even though there is a letter from a commissioner of the EU saying that what UK is doing is OK. They also dont accept a VAT certificate showing that the duty has been paid, so they impose on the spot fines.

If you go into France with red diesel in temporary tanks, you will also be charged duty on those.

I am too much a gentleman to say what I think of this

[ahnutts!]

Originally Posted by Astrid

According to a friend of mine, there was a time where he grew up in Arizona, that diesel fuel was not taxed at the pump. Instead, truckers and those few people with diesel cars were required to keep a mileage log book of on-road diesel usage. At the end of each month, the log was turned in along with fuel receipts for fuel purchased in Arizona and a check for the road tax.

We still do that, gotta keep track of miles driven in each jurisdiction and fuel tax paid. if you buy lots of fuel in high tax states or provinces you get money back. Buy in the cheap states you pay later.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by cburger

I have been told that I am required by law to fill my boats fuel tanks only at marina fuel docks, I.E. fuel from service stations is not allowed. Additionally this individual also indicates that the marina approved diesel has a die added to it to indicate that I am in fact using the appropriate fuel and if boarded I could be asked to allow a sampling of my fuel tanks and if it is shown that I have the wrong diesel type there could be a penalty.

I would love to be enlightened about this please.

This is true. The two types are taxed at different rates. I have no idea why, but you are right that the wrong color diesel will get you in trouble.

[cd30ketch]

Here is the difference between red diesel a regular diesel. Taxes! Since 2007 off road diesel has been the same as other diesel. Now there is a lot of difference between post 2007 diesel and diesel produced prior to 2007. If you own an older Perkins with a CAV injector pump you probably already had the leaks fixed on it. If not you will. I just bought a trawler with a Perkins that had been sitting for years. The tanks were half full so I have been enjoying this summer burning the older diesel. Now that I topped off the tanks I might just as well stick a drip pan under the injector pump because it is going to start leaking!!

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

This is true. The two types are taxed at different rates. I have no idea why, but you are right that the wrong color diesel will get you in trouble.

only true if you use dyed fuel in on-road vehicles (in USA)...not the other way around.

You see boats getting filled up at gas stations all the time....

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by cd30ketch

Here is the difference between red diesel a regular diesel. Taxes! Since 2007 off road diesel has been the same as other diesel. Now there is a lot of difference between post 2007 diesel and diesel produced prior to 2007. If you own an older Perkins with a CAV injector pump you probably already had the leaks fixed on it. If not you will. I just bought a trawler with a Perkins that had been sitting for years. The tanks were half full so I have been enjoying this summer burning the older diesel. Now that I topped off the tanks I might just as well stick a drip pan under the injector pump because it is going to start leaking!!

Use a lubricity improver...the top one I have seen tested is 100 percent biodiesel diluted about 60 oz per 26 gal reg diesel...there are other good ones but many are worse snake oil than nothing...like the "old timers" ideas of different motor, tranny, 2 cycle oils etc...etc...

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Chief Engineer

It always amazes me how people try to save a few cents on fuel......

Think of the time and aggravation you spend.

I guess it all depends on the situation. In 35 minutes my brother and I saved him over $265.00. Roughly $500.00 per hour is damn good pay.. For us the road gas station is less than a mile from the club and was $1.42 per gallon less than the marina was trying to pork him for.

We could have made a 20 minute run, each way, and saved $0.38 per gallon at another marina, but it would have taken us more time, used fuel and not saved nearly as much money. We backed his trailer down and drove the Mako up onto it pulled it to the fueling station and plopped her back in the water all in about 35 minutes. 35 minutes for $265.00, not too bad...

Some marinas are just darn proud of the gas they sell. 9 out of 10 times the spread is not worth the 35 minutes but this summer it was on more than one occasion.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by cburger

I have been told that I am required by law to fill my boats fuel tanks only at marina fuel docks, I.E. fuel from service stations is not allowed. Additionally this individual also indicates that the marina approved diesel has a die added to it to indicate that I am in fact using the appropriate fuel and if boarded I could be asked to allow a sampling of my fuel tanks and if it is shown that I have the wrong diesel type there could be a penalty.

I would love to be enlightened about this please.

Now back to the OP's original issue. It appears that in Marina's run by the state of NY there is indeed a prohibition against "Jerry Canning" fuel across the docks.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_thing...Guidelines.pdf

It is not clear if these rules apply to private marina's but may if the Marina chooses to follow the guidelines. The issue appears to be a safety and pollution control concern rather that an on-off highway diesel or tax issue. There is no penalty for having highway diesel in your tanks anywhere in the US and in some states it's even against the law to use off-highway diesel in recreational boats. NY state is in fact one of those states.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I guess it all depends on the situation. In 35 minutes my brother and I saved him over $265.00. Roughly $500.00 per hour is damn good pay.. For us the road gas station is less than a mile from the club and was $1.42 per gallon less than the marina was trying to pork him for. . .

Let's see $265/1.42 = 187 gallons of diesel - you put 187 gallons of diesel into your Mako fuel tanks? This is a thread about "Marine Diesel Regulations"

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Now back to the OP's original issue. It appears that in Marina's run by the state of NY there is indeed a prohibition against "Jerry Canning" fuel across the docks.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_thing...Guidelines.pdf

It is not clear if these rules apply to private marina's but may if the Marina chooses to follow the guidelines. The issue appears to be a safety and pollution control concern rather that an on-off highway diesel or tax issue. There is no penalty for having highway diesel in your tanks anywhere in the US and in some states it's even against the law to use off-highway diesel in recreational boats. NY state is in fact one of those states.

I know about the jerry can laws but I have NEVER heard of the no off highway in boats...can you elaborate and show a link to those laws because generally thats what IS sold at marinas.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Let's see $265/1.42 = 187 gallons of diesel - you put 187 gallons of diesel into your Mako fuel tanks? This is a thread about "Marine Diesel Regulations"

Thanks for that "Officer On-Topic"..

Nope we put gas in and the tank is somewhere around 200 gallons IIRC. Of course I was responding to this quote;

It always amazes me how people try to save a few cents on fuel......

Think of the time and aggravation you spend.

And was merely pointing out that sometimes the aggravation is worth it depending upon the price of the fuel or gas..

To the OP's point you can run road fuel in your boat but not untaxed off road fuel in your on-road vehicle. but of course that point had ALREADY been WELL COVERED before the "on topic" hall monitor arrived.

In the early spring before the marina fuel dock is open I often have to use jerry cans of road diesel. It's not that big of a deal.

[zeehag]

there is more than a few cents saved and the taxation was fishermen got untaxed diesel and recreation got taxed diesel. that has ceased as no more oficial commercial fishing organiozed in cali exists. ther eis all same sam e same . is 4 dollars per gallon less to buy in road stations than in many o f th e fuel docks. here in mexico, mazatlan, is 3 dollars PER GALLON difference to buy on road than from fuel dock, and no regs about not so doing.

btw--no one is gonna bust ye for buying in a road station and adding by jug unless the uscg is very bored that day and ye spill more than a cup. then is not for filling by jug nor for buying on road---is for spilling diesel in the water. there no longer is any penalty for using wrong color diesel fuel for recreational boaters..tax is same , price is higher at dock, is all.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

. . . And was merely pointing out that sometimes the aggravation is worth it depending upon the price of the fuel or gas. . .

In the early spring before the marina fuel dock is open I often have to use jerry cans of road diesel. It's not that big of a deal.

With that I thoroughly agree. Depending upon the total quantity of fuel purchased the convenience factor kicks in with large amounts and makes the marina fuel worth the extra expense. Especially since I cannot get my 60 ft 40,000 lb sail boat on to a trailer and take it to the local gas station. Those pesky power lines keep snagging on the masts.

- - On the other hand, sometimes marina fuel is not available and you have to jerry can the fuel to your boat. In those circumstances I like the black large funnel filter which I can put into the 1.5" diesel fill fitting on deck and then pour the diesel from the jerry can in without spilling any.