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Old 06-01-2013, 17:24   #136
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Why in the name of god would someone be boarded six times in a day ??


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6 different Departments with budgets to spend and existences to justify?

Whatever, my bet is the weather was nice and sunny (oh what a cynical git I am ).
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Old 06-01-2013, 18:40   #137
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/11/ny...ters.html?_r=0

Here's one example (4 times in a day). Ask the internet for other examples, for it knows everything...
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Old 06-01-2013, 21:48   #138
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post

You want to have a political rant send a note to your elected officals and make your opinion know by voting!
Don,

Oh, wouldn't that be nice !
Take a look at a movie based on a true story:

Battle-of-Athens
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Old 07-01-2013, 05:33   #139
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

This is kind of related thread drift. But this thread make me wonder (again) just who has the authority to stop and board your boat. Just what Federal and State agencies truly have the the authority as opposed to those that believe they do.

The earlier case about the Coast Guard was interesting about it that they can not do "safety" inspections at night. Yet I had always accepted that the CG had the right to do this at anytime (I couldn't find anything saying the case that was from the 70s has been overturned).

The CG is now part of Homeland Security, does that change anything?

Are there armed Homeland Security boats as I never had really thought that HLS as having its' own armed paramilitary force.

What is the authority and limits of local police, state police, harbor patrols?

I tried a web search and just ran into results that really have nothing to do with my questions (needs a magic finger search maybe, Gord).

I even looked in the Boat US site thinking that since they are big boating lobbyists that they would have something. I couldn't find anything on their site so I sent them an email recommending they do an article.

I know from past threads that there are lots of people here that think they know who/what/where "they" can stop and board us, but from the posts it really is clear that as a group we don't know the answer based on facts.

I don't wish to start any rants, just get the facts. It would be worth knowing who really has the authority to stop and board. Which is a lot different than who can stop and board as the answer to that is anyone with with enough force to do so (my position is that I'm not arguing with a boatload of people with assault weapons).


PS - again if you want to rant about lost perceived rights etc take it somewhere else,............ or move!
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:07   #140
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

Check out this link, you might re-think how you great the authorities https://.org/whatisthendaa/legal-analysis/
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:08   #141
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
T... But this thread make me wonder (again) just who has the authority to stop and board your boat. Just what Federal and State agencies truly have the the authority as opposed to those that believe they do ...
This will vary slightly, from State to State.

Generally, State Boating Laws will fall under the authority of that State’s Department of:
Fish and Wildlife Resources,
Department of Parks and Recreation,
Department of Conservation and Natural Resources
and such.
With enforcement delegated to (mostly) any peace or law enforcement officer, such as:
Marine Patrols
County sheriffs and deputy sheriffs (within their jurisdiction or county)
etc.
Authorized enforcement personnel have the authority to stop and board vessels to check for compliance with state and federal laws.

The U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) has enforcement authority on federally controlled waters.”

State-Specific Boating Safety Requirements

https://www.google.ca/search?q=State...ient=firefox-a

https://www.google.ca/search?q=boate...ient=firefox-a
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:46   #142
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

I got a reesponse from Boat US and they say they are working on an article about boarding etc laws.
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:47   #143
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
This will vary slightly, from State to State.

Generally, State Boating Laws will fall under the authority of that State’s Department of:
Fish and Wildlife Resources,
Department of Parks and Recreation,
Department of Conservation and Natural Resources
and such.
With enforcement delegated to (mostly) any peace or law enforcement officer, such as:
Marine Patrols
County sheriffs and deputy sheriffs (within their jurisdiction or county)
etc.
Authorized enforcement personnel have the authority to stop and board vessels to check for compliance with state and federal laws.

The U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) has enforcement authority on federally controlled waters.”

State-Specific Boating Safety Requirements

https://www.google.ca/search?q=State...ient=firefox-a

https://www.google.ca/search?q=boate...ient=firefox-a
Pretty much anyone with a badge and a gun then?
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:53   #144
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

by and large ( and not confined to teh US), boats as means of transport, do not have the protection that houses on land do. Hence many agencies the world over , once you are in their territory, have the right to inspect your vessel,its crew, passengers and cargo. Outside of territorial waters the one with the biggest guns gets that right,

Dave
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:28   #145
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
The CG is now part of Homeland Security, does that change anything?

Are there armed Homeland Security boats as I never had really thought that HLS as having its' own armed paramilitary force.
The USCG and Customs & Border Protection are both a part of Homeland Security with armed forces on the water. Homeland Security looks like a reorganization of existing agencies, plus the addition of TSA.

This is from Wikipedia:
In the United States, the concept of "Homeland Security"extends and recombines responsibilities of government agencies and entities. According to Homeland security research, the U.S. federal Homeland Security and Homeland Defense includes 187 federal agencies and departments,[2] including the United States National Guard, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the United States Coast Guard, Customs and Border Protection, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, the United States Secret Service, the Transportation Security Administration, the 14 agencies that constitute the U.S. intelligence community and Civil Air Patrol.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:50   #146
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

I posed the question to each of the agencies that I talked to" as a boater what are my legal rights concerning boardings?". Not one would attempt to answer the question. Lindsey Graham was the senator who's office was contacted and said they would start an inquiry. His office was contacted by a close friend of mine in Charleston SC where I had left from some weeks earlier. An official from DHS last named Schinde was also contacted by same and stated he would look into it. No respnse to date from either office, but a link to this thread has been sent to Senator Grahams office. Well see if there's a response.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:04   #147
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

I guess the link I posted doesn't work, sorry. Google the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 and 2013. You will find a lot of debate of how far reaching Sections 1021 of the 2012 Act and that of the Act of 2013 purports to authorize. I'm not saying what it does or doesn't say as it clearly up for debate. Be informed and then determine how you want to respond to those who are approaching you under the color of authority.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:11   #148
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

Just from observation, it appears that HLS can incorperate any department under their control. Even the NOAA people go armed these days. When the term "New World Order" started being used it put a cold shiver down my spine.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:42   #149
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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
It sure would be nice if someone with deep pockets tested this in court.

They can't search my car without PC why should they search my boat or any other place without PC?

As for "safety" checks that practice should stop and an annual boat inspection enacted if necessary. Having kids on deck without PFDs is not probable cause to search my boat unless PFD is the law (like seatbelts)
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:15   #150
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Re: Maltreatment By Homeland Security

Dan-
It has in fact been tested by the courts, numerous times, numerous places. the problem is the word "unreasonable" has never been defined. In the early 70's there was a case that went up to the USSC over stopping motor vehicles on the highway. Court had previsouly ruled no, you can't just pull 'em over and take 'em apart at randomm that's unreasonable.
Then they changed their minds, if the cops want to look in your trunk and you say no, they an hold you till a drug dog comes along to discuss "reasonable".
Same thing with safety boardings, airline security...if you catch something once in a million times based on random numbers or every nth passerby, is it unreasonable? You and I and twelve jurors might say yes, but the courts say no. When the law is wrong and the enforcement based on it is wrong, the law says that is illegal but done "under the color of law".
No need to waste money taking that to court. If you want to change things, the problem is educating the voters. Or as an editorial some years ago in the New York Times once concluded, "Lions and tigers and bears in the streets? Oh yes, perhaps we do need some more of those."

When the folks at USYRU wre talking about changing the name to USSA in order to "make it sound less elitist" I said that if folks couldn't figure out how to get past the name, did we really want them to get on the water?

I prefer the old politics, the way Tip O'Neil spoke about how they were practiced in Boston. Your local party rep would buy anyone a drink on election day. He'd buy members of the other party drinks all day, to keep them drunk and out of the polls. He'd buy members of his own party drinks all day long--but only after they'd come back from voting. Both parties did it. Now, the bars are closed on election day. No wonder the economy is in the can!
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