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Old 01-01-2019, 16:29   #106
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pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Boat,

If, after you did all of that, he had a heart attack and died you would be right where this Capt is now.

I’ll go further, after reading all the laws, had you left him on watch and simply gone below, and come back up and found him gone, you would be in the same place. Someone can always find something you could have done better.

Thats the price of being the skipper..
Theres always a civil investigation in lost/death at sea incidents and if there are found to be what could be considered suspicious circumstances it is then moved to a criminal court to be judged.
Which I presume is the thing with this case.
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Old 01-01-2019, 16:40   #107
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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But yes.. I still maintain I would turn to pick him up much as you would like to believe I would not.. if things really happened the way their story has it.
You seem to be confused here.
I never indicated you (professional) would fail to turn back.
Neither would I (amateur) fail to turn back.
However, I might pause just a bit longer for the MOB guy that was strangling me. You would let him float for a bit longer if he was conscious.
My point is that this case is not as black and white as you claimed.

You would race across the ocean for miles to aid in someone else's MOB problem, yet you would leave behind the hypothetical Somolian MOBs that fired upon you. Why? Well, because they tried to kill you. BUT, you would have immediately turned back to save the guy who tried to strangle you to death.

If you don't see the contradiction in your logic, then you are not understanding my point. This is a gray zone, not black and white. Even for you virtuous professionals.
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Old 01-01-2019, 17:07   #108
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pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Originally Posted by cyan View Post
You seem to be confused here.
I never indicated you (professional) would fail to turn back.
Neither would I (amateur) fail to turn back.
However, I might pause just a bit longer for the MOB guy that was strangling me. You would let him float for a bit longer if he was conscious.
My point is that this case is not as black and white as you claimed.

You would race across the ocean for miles to aid in someone else's MOB problem, yet you would leave behind the hypothetical Somolian MOBs that fired upon you. Why? Well, because they tried to kill you. BUT, you would have immediately turned back to save the guy who tried to strangle you to death.

If you don't see the contradiction in your logic, then you are not understanding my point. This is a gray zone, not black and white. Even for you virtuous professionals.
5 knots is hardly racing across an ocean...
and armed Somlians is not a crew member tripping out on drugs because you stuffed up through lack of care.
It may be a grey area for you but not for me.. anyway.. Somalians operate in pairs so the resonsibility lies with the other boat who would in all likelyhood ignore them and keep after me.. then maybe go back for their mates..
But then again.. more shares means less profit so maybe not..
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Old 01-01-2019, 18:12   #109
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Boat,

If, after you did all of that, he had a heart attack and died you would be right where this Capt is now.

I’ll go further, after reading all the laws, had you left him on watch and simply gone below, and come back up and found him gone, you would be in the same place. Someone can always find something you could have done better.
You are 1/2 right. He would still be in trouble for giving perscripion meds with in adequate med info. But that is a whole lot better than leaving him behind. Absent giving him the meds, he would not be in trouble.
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Old 01-01-2019, 18:22   #110
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyan View Post
You seem to be confused here.
I never indicated you (professional) would fail to turn back.
Neither would I (amateur) fail to turn back.
However, I might pause just a bit longer for the MOB guy that was strangling me. You would let him float for a bit longer if he was conscious.
My point is that this case is not as black and white as you claimed.

You would race across the ocean for miles to aid in someone else's MOB problem, yet you would leave behind the hypothetical Somolian MOBs that fired upon you. Why? Well, because they tried to kill you. BUT, you would have immediately turned back to save the guy who tried to strangle you to death.

If you don't see the contradiction in your logic, then you are not understanding my point. This is a gray zone, not black and white. Even for you virtuous professionals.
Is this a real post????

If you do not see the difference between armed pirates attacking a vessel and a medical issue with someone that YOU HIRED, or a crewman MOB situation... ...

Even if I was not a “virtuous professional”, being a competent and responsible mariner, I would make the same decisions.

Although, as Boatie said, I would most likely not been in that spot.
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Old 01-01-2019, 23:51   #111
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Is this a real post????

If you do not see the difference between armed pirates attacking a vessel and a medical issue with someone that YOU HIRED, or a crewman MOB situation... ...

Even if I was not a “virtuous professional”, being a competent and responsible mariner, I would make the same decisions.

Although, as Boatie said, I would most likely not been in that spot.
Are you really not understanding this simple point?
(I'll give you slack if you didn't follow the thread.)

I'm not arguing that the captain in question failed in his duty. Clearly.
Boatman61 stated that he would have responded automatically in this case and all other mayday/MOB cases. Every time. He then suggested that this is a trait of professionals.
"People who make their living on the sea tend to respond automatically when life is at risk"

I simply pointed out a situation where this statement is false, in the case of a stranger trying to kill you. Oh, do we make professional exceptions for pirates on other boats? Cool. Let em drown. How about exceptions for stranglers on the same boat? Nope, don't let THOSE killers drown, cuz professional duty and all.

You can't have it both ways, without admitting that there is a grey zone entered when someone tries to kill you. The Standby Act in US law requires you to assist any MOB. It does not provide exemptions for previous shots fired or previous throats crushed, only exemptions for CURRENT danger to your vessel.

In reality, some killers you pick up and some killers you leave behind.
If you feel more likely to pick up a killer MOB because he fell off of YOUR boat, fine. Leave the other killers behind.
You've drawn the line somewhere.
So did Rick Smith.
It's a grey zone.
Why is this so difficult?
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Old 01-01-2019, 23:56   #112
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

I think Boatman clearly drew the line at his crew vs the crew of others. That seems reasonable to me, but I'm not an attorney.
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Old 02-01-2019, 00:08   #113
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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I think Boatman clearly drew the line at his crew vs the crew of others. That seems reasonable to me, but I'm not an attorney.
That seems quite reasonable to me, too.
However, the reason is a bit more self-serving than the stated romantic notion of the professional mariner "automatically" sailing miles to save lives no matter what. In this case, the Captain would have to explain one soul missing from his crew manifest upon entering port. Avoiding this hot water is much less noble than was implied.
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Old 02-01-2019, 00:16   #114
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Originally Posted by cyan View Post
That seems quite reasonable to me, too.
However, the reason is a bit more self-serving than the stated romantic notion of the professional mariner "automatically" sailing miles to save lives no matter what. In this case, the Captain would have to explain one soul missing from his crew manifest upon entering port. Avoiding this hot water is much less noble than was implied.
I'd say that's reaching.

The example presented "If a group of skinny gentlemen near the Gulf of Aden capsized their speed boat while trying to get you to stop with shots from their AK47s"

Captain's duty is to protect the crew and the vessel first. No sane person is going to react in that situation as a MOB. At least no sane person being chased.

This reminds me of the question, would you rather be 'right' or 'liked'? You're nitpicking unnecessarily IMO.
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Old 02-01-2019, 01:31   #115
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

I don't think it is romanticism at all. When one is young, and drilled repeatedly, many responses become automatic. Un-learning them would be difficult. Duty of skipper is to crew (all of them) and boat: =+1

That's what Jim (poor lad) tried to drill into me. How you parse that if the person has been a danger to your crew and yourself may be an individual thing, but it is contrary to the skipper duty drilled into you in the beginning, if you were a pro.

As Boatman61 suggested, conservative captaincy of the vessel would have taken the "distressed" crew member ashore: he was clearly not helping, but hindering. His seasickness was the first warning sign.

That first warning was understood differently by the skipper. He thought something like, mal de mer, "okay I'll give him what i know to be most effective". It did not work out as he had planned. In spite of this thread's existence, I do not think it is reasonable to expect non pharmacy conscious people to understand about scopalomine. I know, hpeer knows, but few understand that what the distressed crew presented with COULD have been due to scop; or due to some other drug reaction; or due to a psychotic break, that most of us are not equipped to diagnose correctly.

Once one of your own crew members is in the water, your course of duty is clear--it is not that i don't understand the conflict--but the skipper's #1 duty is to ship and crew: and skipper is expected to deal with misbehaviour, even forcefully. But way better to not let it develop.

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Old 02-01-2019, 01:52   #116
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyan View Post
Are you really not understanding this simple point?
(I'll give you slack if you didn't follow the thread.)

I'm not arguing that the captain in question failed in his duty. Clearly.
Boatman61 stated that he would have responded automatically in this case and all other mayday/MOB cases. Every time. He then suggested that this is a trait of professionals.
"People who make their living on the sea tend to respond automatically when life is at risk"

I simply pointed out a situation where this statement is false, in the case of a stranger trying to kill you. Oh, do we make professional exceptions for pirates on other boats? Cool. Let em drown. How about exceptions for stranglers on the same boat? Nope, don't let THOSE killers drown, cuz professional duty and all.

You can't have it both ways, without admitting that there is a grey zone entered when someone tries to kill you. The Standby Act in US law requires you to assist any MOB. It does not provide exemptions for previous shots fired or previous throats crushed, only exemptions for CURRENT danger to your vessel.

In reality, some killers you pick up and some killers you leave behind.
If you feel more likely to pick up a killer MOB because he fell off of YOUR boat, fine. Leave the other killers behind.
You've drawn the line somewhere.
So did Rick Smith.
It's a grey zone.
Why is this so difficult?
Like most things violently debated here on CF, it is more nuanced and grey than black and white. Your example of attackers who end up in the water and at risk of drowning is valid. I'd have to turn away, even though it might not fit the image of the righteous captain.
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:43   #117
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
5 knots is hardly racing across an ocean...
and armed Somlians is not a crew member tripping out on drugs because you stuffed up through lack of care.
It may be a grey area for you but not for me.. anyway.. Somalians operate in pairs so the resonsibility lies with the other boat who would in all likelyhood ignore them and keep after me.. then maybe go back for their mates..
But then again.. more shares means less profit so maybe not..
Have you ever tried to restrain a big guy off his head on drugs? I've seen three trained grown men try to restrain a drugged up big guy, not always that easy, it's not the movies.

BTW your self defence course for skippers is a joke. I worked doors for quite a few years and situations rarely go down in a way that your one or two self defense techniques are going to be much help, unless you are extremely practised and experienced so you react with out thinking, your wrist locks etc just get you further in the........!

IMHO the skipper has a duty of care to himself and the remaining crew, the dude that decided to jump overboard was a threat to all, your making assumptions that you could restraint him and keep him restrained. It's a call only the guy on the scene can make, none of us were there.
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Old 02-01-2019, 04:17   #118
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

[QUOTE=daletournier;2792776

IMHO the skipper has a duty of care to himself and the remaining crew, the dude that decided to jump overboard was a threat to all, your making assumptions that you could restraint him and keep him restrained. It's a call only the guy on the scene can make, none of us were there.[/QUOTE]



For those who have been following the thread, I posted a few pages back a rather detailed list of why this is the Owner’s issue.

He could have done much more, such as that lashing an EPIRB to a PFD and throwing it over in the area of the MOB. Circling the area while trying to get help would have shown more care. Simply sailing off, abandoning an ill shipmate is outside my moral code.

Keep in mind the actions of the owner likely brought on the psychotic episode.
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Old 02-01-2019, 04:28   #119
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyan View Post
Are you really not understanding this simple point?

(I'll give you slack if you didn't follow the thread.)



I'm not arguing that the captain in question failed in his duty. Clearly.

Boatman61 stated that he would have responded automatically in this case and all other mayday/MOB cases. Every time. He then suggested that this is a trait of professionals.

"People who make their living on the sea tend to respond automatically when life is at risk"




Sigh. Clearly, you have not been following this thread. If you were, you would have read the detailed post I made a few pages back that listed the series of errors the owner made.

Boatie is wrong- responding automatically to a vessel in distress is not limited to pros (although I am one) it is the obligation of any competent mariner.

The quantum difference between pirates and this MOB is a pirates mission is to take my boat the MOB is someone the owner hired who had a psychotic episode, likely because of the owners actions.

Had the owner stopped and analyzed the situation (see my previous post) a better plan could have been worked out.
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Old 02-01-2019, 05:18   #120
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pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Have you ever tried to restrain a big guy off his head on drugs? I've seen three trained grown men try to restrain a drugged up big guy, not always that easy, it's not the movies.

BTW your self defence course for skippers is a joke. I worked doors for quite a few years and situations rarely go down in a way that your one or two self defense techniques are going to be much help, unless you are extremely practised and experienced so you react with out thinking, your wrist locks etc just get you further in the........!

IMHO the skipper has a duty of care to himself and the remaining crew, the dude that decided to jump overboard was a threat to all, your making assumptions that you could restraint him and keep him restrained. It's a call only the guy on the scene can make, none of us were there.
LMAO.. it was not a course merely a suggestion of some possible tactics.. and you obviously are just diving in without absorbiing what I wrote.. I made no mention of wrist holds, I said if someone is trying to strangle you get hold of each of their little fingers and pull outwards, I dont care how strong you are you cannot resist the force.. try it with your wife/gf and see if you can resist.
I agree about practice/experience.. like in all things but better than nothing. Oh.. and working doors qualifies you for SFA.. most are bullies who function in pairs from my experience.. and to be honest.. how much further in the **** can you get from being strangled.
I advised taking a self defense course and some things that are taught.
Lets agree to disagree over the case of fight or flee.
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