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Old 31-12-2018, 09:15   #91
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

It seems to me that there is hardly ever an excuse for simply leaving someone at sea without an effort to rescue. If he had searched and rescued the fellow, the miscreant would surely have had the fight gone from him. He would be exhausted and restrainable once aboard. The failure to seriously call for help is another factor.

But I also wonder if the decision to prosecute is based on something different altogether. Perhaps the prosecutor believes that some of the story is made up. That rather than jumping, there was a push. In the time it took to get to port, it would not be hard to make a somewhat credible story. I certainly am not accusing the captain of lying, but we don't know the tale of the evidence. As I have learned long ago in practicing law, what matters in court is not the facts in some objective state, but what one can prove, based on the evidence.

If you had intentionally knocked the troublesome crewman over the side, would you come to shore and say so? Or maybe I have read too much Agatha Christie..
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Old 31-12-2018, 10:24   #92
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If I was a prosecutor I would have a ball..
Why carry an unregistered gun.. its no use for protection if you are going to have to dump it before arriving at another US port..???
Does the skipper or one of the crew own a registered gun/pistol and can they account for it..???
Would the gun have shown evidence of recent use.???
Would a forensic search of the boat reveal blood related dna of the deceased..???
To many questions and a weak CG report taking the word of the remaining crew as was stated by someone else here.
As some of us know only to well.. life on the water and in most ports is not just palm trees and white beaches, violence is often just a heartbeat away.
Unlike most I am not taking their evidence as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
And it seems, neither is the prosecutor.
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Old 31-12-2018, 11:59   #93
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

Here is a more detailed overview of the statute in question.

https://www.blankrome.com/siteFiles/...E1A4E43E6C.pdf

I think it is interesting and bears some consideration.

Two things strike me.

All previous prosecutions were involving paid captains and crew. This case is strictly recreational. The capt did charter the boat but was not on charter at the time of the incident.


All previous prosecutions were for events clearly within USA territorial waters. This boat was 300 nm off shore.

There is curious wording “where life is destroyed”. I suspect someone could try to broaden that beyond death to injury of some sort.

I’m not convienced this statute is applicable. From Wiki:

Quote:
The Seaman's Manslaughter Statute, codified at 18 U.S.C. ß 1115, criminalizes misconduct or negligence that result in deaths involving vessels (ships and boats) on waters in the jurisdiction of the United States.[1][2] The statute exposes three groups to criminal liability:
Elsewhere I was told the laws of the country of registration apply. But the statute limits itself to waters of US jurisdiction. If it was intended to apply outside the 3/12/200 mile zone then those words are unnecessary. So it sounds self limiting to me. Maybe I misread something?

If it IS applicable then it certinaly raises the threat to any of us for any injury on any boat at any time. There is almost no incident where a life is lost at sea that could not be traced to some oversight, some “negligence.” I’m not sure it needs to to be a death, just some accident that incapacitated a person to some vague degree.

Frankly I hope this case gets thrown out of court. Otherwise there will be a whole new class of lawsuits with consequences on us all.

Anyway, interesting reading.
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Old 31-12-2018, 21:54   #94
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

Remember this all was adjudicated in Cuba. Therefore, it is informative to all of us who wish to sail to Cuba.

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Old 31-12-2018, 22:31   #95
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Remember this all was adjudicated in Cuba. Therefore, it is informative to all of us who wish to sail to Cuba.

Ann
Wrong thread I think...there is another thread on a case in Cuba.
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Old 31-12-2018, 22:57   #96
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Frankly I hope this case gets thrown out of court....
I would put money on this been the outcome, the defendant may get a 'stern' talking to but that will be the extent of it, and rightly so imo.......
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Old 31-12-2018, 23:21   #97
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Methinks a lot of boat owners/skippers need to take some basic self defense classes before considering taking on crew from internet sites..
Eye gouging, knee to testicles or grab and squeeze and twist, how to stick the nut on someone without hurting oneself, if someone has grabbed you by the throat grip their little fingers and twist outwards and up.. they will let go as the fingers break.. learn how to half nelson someone so they lose conciousness.. usually 30 seconds..
Or.. if your carrying a gun as these were, shoot him in the leg.
Geez, Boatie. These London hotels you used to work in were a bit rough around the edges! In Shoreditch, perhaps?
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Old 01-01-2019, 03:27   #98
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pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

Naah tp12.. learnt that in my first few months in the Royal Navy.. used to fight by Queensbury Rules before I moved to the UK..
Knock someone down you help them up, ask if they're ok and if they want to carry on.
First fight I got into on the messdeck I did that.. then he knocked me down and kicked the crap outa me to try and keep me down.
I had been raised with the myth that Englishmen were gentlemen..
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Old 01-01-2019, 04:58   #99
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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Naah tp12.. learnt that in my first few months in the Royal Navy.. used to fight by Queensbury Rules before I moved to the UK..
Knock someone down you help them up, ask if they're ok and if they want to carry on.
First fight I got into on the messdeck I did that.. then he knocked me down and kicked the crap outa me to try and keep me down.
I had been raised with the myth that Englishmen were gentlemen..
I reckon I might have done my service after you, and only down in the colony, but we had a similar morality.

Times have changed now, though.
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Old 01-01-2019, 05:49   #100
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

Maritime law holds us to high standards where the protections of life and property are concerned, and rightfully so; but in many land jurisdictions, deadly force is justified if a "reasonable person" would deem it necessary to prevent the commission of murder (or even serious physical injury) by an assailant. Had the captain or someone else shot the crew member dead while he was choking the captain, would charges have been brought? I understand the letter of the law regarding MOB, and that the lives of the captain and crew were no longer in danger when the decision was tacitly made to leave the man to the sea; but this could've happened to any of us and how can we know, as armchair admirals, how we'd have reacted in such extreme circumstances? I hope that the court tempers its findings with consideration of the threat to the lives of all aboard that the lost crewman embodied, and the fact that humans are sometimes less perfect than their intentions.
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Old 01-01-2019, 13:44   #101
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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...
I understand the letter of the law regarding MOB, and that the lives of the captain and crew were no longer in danger when the decision was tacitly made to leave the man to the sea; but this could've happened to any of us and how can we know, as armchair admirals, how we'd have reacted in such extreme circumstances?
Exactly.

We can claim all kinds of virtues here, which are magically stronger among professionals with licenses and reputations. I call bollocks. None of us were getting the life choked out of us by the MOB in question. We werenít there.

If a group of skinny gentlemen near the Gulf of Aden capsized their speed boat while trying to get you to stop with shots from their AK47s, would your MOB reflexes be so automatic? I might have a long think before turning around. But then I donít have a license and reputation to protect.
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Old 01-01-2019, 14:00   #102
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Exactly.

We can claim all kinds of virtues here, which are magically stronger among professionals with licenses and reputations. I call bollocks. None of us were getting the life choked out of us by the MOB in question. We werenít there.

If a group of skinny gentlemen near the Gulf of Aden capsized their speed boat while trying to get you to stop with shots from their AK47s, would your MOB reflexes be so automatic? I might have a long think before turning around. But then I donít have a license and reputation to protect.
LMAO..
Well thats a dumb comparison.. of course I would not, they would not be my responsibility.. theyre someone elses crew.
But its your right to be that.
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Old 01-01-2019, 14:36   #103
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

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LMAO..
Well thats a dumb comparison.. of course I would not, they would not be my responsibility.. theyre someone elses crew.
But its your right to be that.
Ah, but I think you see my point now, dumb comparison or not.
You implied earlier that your professional status would have you respond immediately to save any MOB, whether or not he had just attempted murder. Your boat or not.
You also implied that those of us who treat the "sea as a playground" wouldn't understand such automatic response. No matter what.
I called bullocks.
For the record, that doesn't imply I wouldn't have a rum with you.
It just means I'm pointing out flawed facets of your stated virtues.

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for you the sea is likely a playground.. an escape from the 9 to 5 whatever desk job.
For us who do this for a living its a lot more serious.. we have a lot to lose.
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I hear a Mayday.. do I think what if..???
No.. I alter course and see if I can render assistance..
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Old 01-01-2019, 14:57   #104
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Ah, but I think you see my point now, dumb comparison or not.
You implied earlier that your professional status would have you respond immediately to save any MOB, whether or not he had just attempted murder. Your boat or not.
You also implied that those of us who treat the "sea as a playground" wouldn't understand such automatic response. No matter what.
I called bullocks.
For the record, that doesn't imply I wouldn't have a rum with you.
It just means I'm pointing out flawed facets of your stated virtues.
And I am saying the situation would never have arisen in my case.. it would not have got to that stage, he'd have been dropped ashore before long that..
If I had let him aboard in the first place.
But yes.. I still maintain I would turn to pick him up much as you would like to believe I would not.. if things really happened the way their story has it.
Reasons..
1/ when/if I found him concious I would not attempt recovery till he was so exhausted he could barely stay afloat then bring him on board and restrain him.
2/ if he was unconcious then I would recover and restrain before attempting resuscitation.
Lets just put it down to the English gentleman mentality..
What you choose to believe/think is your privilige.
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Old 01-01-2019, 15:08   #105
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Re: Lost crew captain charged

Boat,

If, after you did all of that, he had a heart attack and died you would be right where this Capt is now.

I’ll go further, after reading all the laws, had you left him on watch and simply gone below, and come back up and found him gone, you would be in the same place. Someone can always find something you could have done better.
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