Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-12-2018, 03:53   #61
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 5,255
Re: Lost crew captain charged

Boatie,

Can you please tell me what “legal responsibilities” you have in mind? I’m not arguing here that he should have done a MOB. I’m asking for a reference to the legalities.

Also I hope folks here make an effort to read the USCG report linked above. It’s deffinetly different than the newspaper report, but more difficult to access.
__________________

hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 04:37   #62
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 23,918
Images: 2
pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

Okay.. I'll give it a shot.. just remember I have been licensed to skipper boats carrying upto 220 passengers in my past so that affects my line of reasoning.
To my mind a skipper has a legal responsibility for the welfare and safety of all on board..
His actions and decisions determine whether people live or die at sea so it is not surprising to me if a skipper is charged as this one is for culpable manslaughter.
If you look at the case of the Bene that lost its keel and sank with all lost you will see that the owner was charged with manslaughter and is I believe currently doing time.. and he was nowhere near the boat.
This skipper failed to manage his boat and crew in a seamanlike manner.. from the moment he permitted an unknown person of suspect health to join the vessel.
He then failed in his duty of care by not heading for shore after 24hrs at sea observing the continuing distress the man was suffering.. each following day in my opinion was a repeat offense and a cumulative failure of care which worsened his condition and led up to the tragedy.
Following the man jumping over the side he continued to demonstrate his lack of care and duty by making no effort to rescue him, despite near perfect conditions but sailed on abandoning him to his fate.
This is a supposedly very experienced skipper who does charters and takes paying passengers for day or longer trips, and presumably licenced to do so.. would you hire him knowing he could be so casual with your life.
You give someone a ride in your car and kill them through an act of careless driving.. you are charged with manslaughter..
You had a legal duty of care the minute they got in your car.
Revenge has nothing to do with it..
Whether the skipper is considered fit to continue taking people to sea has everything to do with it..
But.. I have to think this way for My Crews sake.
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 05:03   #63
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 23,918
Images: 2
pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

Another thing that affects my opinion..
Cannabis being dumped overboard by the skipper.. now this affects the mental processes of people.. more so as Americans smoke neat weed unlike in Europe where hash is mixed with tobacco and is as a result not so potent..
Was the skipper and friends toking.. did this contribute to their lack of care..???
Its a one sided story from 3 friends who IMHO share the responsibility to varying degrees.
There was no blood tests for drugs when the incident was reported on arrival I dont think.. and by the time he was arrested months later any test would have been irrelevant.. so a court would/may also take that into consideration.
But as we know from this thread.. folks opinions vary from serves the ******* right.. Rock on skipper... to the few who do this for a living and feel as I do.
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 05:30   #64
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,032
Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Everyone is stating the case as a MOB - which usually infers an accidental or unintended occurrence. From what I have read, the deceased made an informed choice to depart the boat. He not fall overboard, he choose to jump overboard in order to go where he wanted to go.

Perhaps he was delusional, perhaps not - only a trained health care professional can really say - the rest of us (including the Captain and crew) are guessing. Yes, from I have read, he was delusional but I (or the Captain or the crew) can't know that for sure.

To prevent him from leaving the boat is depriving him of his liberty - literally kidnapping him.

The captain however does bear the responsibility of turning around and looking for him - knowing that he is unlikely to survive otherwise - sane or not.
Coming aboard a vessel you are stepping into the Captain's world. On a vessel your liberties are more limited then in the general population. It may seem like a democracy but do not be fooled, it is a dictatorial state. The Captain is as benevolent as crew behavior warrants.

'You do your duty and we may get along, but whatever happens you will do your duty.'

If it be 'kidnapping' which is deemed necessary then so be it for the safety of crew and vessel is paramount. It is the Captain's duty to provide for and preserve safety by every means necessary, even for that belligerent crew.

Running from Japan to AK, we picked up a buddy boat. That boat wanted to transfer one crew to us because he was acting out and refused to perform any duties. Weather prevented the transfer. Later, that crew threatened the crew and Captain with a knife. It ended up that the Captain knocked him out with a fist to the face. That broke his nose but did knock him out so the crew could be restrained and tightly bound and seated at the galley table. Dutch Harbor was out nearest port. USCG found no wrongdoing by the Captain.

I had to literally kick my brother's friend below because he refused to leave the deck or to help with the boat and threatened anyone to move him. He just sat in the way of others, interfere with them, and shout snide remarks. It was evening twilight and weather was building. I also told him that if he dares to come up that I'll shackle him to the anchor. Joking but I meant it.
USCG Long Beach notified Morro Bay and they arrested him at the dock. Nothing further happened.

Different subject: Methinks LT. Hopper USCG reads too much fiction. His draft report reads like a piece of fiction rather than an official report. His 'report' contributes to this bad dream.
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 05:40   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,032
Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Another thing that affects my opinion..
Cannabis being dumped overboard by the skipper.. now this affects the mental processes of people.. more so as Americans smoke neat weed unlike in Europe where hash is mixed with tobacco and is as a result not so potent..
Was the skipper and friends toking.. did this contribute to their lack of care..???
Its a one sided story from 3 friends who IMHO share the responsibility to varying degrees.
There was no blood tests for drugs when the incident was reported on arrival I dont think.. and by the time he was arrested months later any test would have been irrelevant.. so a court would/may also take that into consideration.
But as we know from this thread.. folks opinions vary from serves the ******* right.. Rock on skipper... to the few who do this for a living and feel as I do.
I greatly despise zero tolerance policies when they are implemented by the government. I know several who lost their boats and/or received jail time during the USCG zero tolerance of the 1980s.

However and of course, each Captain may decide on his own vessel. For me, that is zero pot aboard and certainly no using while ashore at port o'call. Alcohol is permitted but closely regulated and zero on duty aboard.

In one of the first comments to this thread, you mentioned the Captain doesn't know how, or requires retraining, about MOB tactics. My reading from the various links provided by other commenters is the Captain said he was not prepared for 'it'. I took that to mean the overall conditions and not the MOB specifically.
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 05:57   #66
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 23,918
Images: 2
pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

Is one Ever prepared for MOB..
It should be instictive in a good skipper.. helm hard over to turn the stern away from the side of the MOB..
Release/harden sheets depending on wind direction and the adjust accordingly as you round 180 to start your run back..
If motoring its much simpler..
As to conditions.. 5kts, good vis with full moon, near calm sea.
Sorry.. no give on that one.. just poor seamanship.
Still devils advocate..
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 06:22   #67
Marine Service Provider
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Tartan 33 and OPB
Posts: 2,375
Send a message via Skype™ to Snore
Re: Lost crew captain charged

Keep in mind that while certain states have some interesting marijuana laws, as a USCG Master or OUPV you are regulated by Federal laws. So if this licensed individual had weed aboard, he violated one standard. If he partook, he fundamentally invalidated his license. That is the law.

The fact that the USCG examining officer knew he dumped weed and that the owner's judgement was a factor in the death of the crewman and that the owner was licensed- the decision for the USCG not to administer/order a drug test is odd.

As posted elsewhere, if you have a USCG license there is a drug testing requirement. Curious to hear of this person's means of compliance.

Regarding being prepared for a MOB? No one ever is. That is why you practice it and repeat the drill for new crew.
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ismael -a link to my delivery website is in my profileó
Snore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 06:24   #68
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 23,918
Images: 2
pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

Oh.. and to the guy who questioned hauling an unconscious heavy person back aboard.. better work out some methods.. even a 150lb person is difficult..
One day you may need to do it for someone you love.. and that could include having to jump in yourself to fit a sling or clip a line to their harness.
If your waiting till it happens to formulate your plan.. Theyre dead
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 06:27   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,032
Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Is one Ever prepared for MOB..
It should be instictive in a good skipper.. helm hard over to turn the stern away from the side of the MOB..
Release/harden sheets depending on wind direction and the adjust accordingly as you round 180 to start your run back..
If motoring its much simpler..
As to conditions.. 5kts, good vis with full moon, near calm sea.
Sorry.. no give on that one.. just poor seamanship.
Still devils advocate..
To clarify, the 'conditions' also include the disposition of the deceased crew leading up to and during the time he jumped as well as the moments immediately following. It seems the Captain was severely rattled emotionally speaking. The Captain's alleged drug use would be a causitive factor.

With respect to the need for repetitious drills, nothing could be more true. A personal story:

I was EMT II certified and had been for a number of years. So when the time came to save a man's life I nearly froze, I had to harden myself and keep telling myself I know what to do. I was literally shaking at first because I figured I was the only person present with this training and only moments to decide while a whole bunch of people looked on. This even though I has been through actual emergencies plus countless hours in recurrent training.

He made it through but I was an emotional wreck for the rest of that night and the next day. One can never have enough practice in these things which may decide life and death.
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 06:41   #70
Are you serious?
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 15,028
Re: Lost crew captain charged

For everything up till about 30 seconds before the guy JUMPED over are just a bunch of "could of" "should of" "might haves" "maybes" post judgement calls and the captain and crew had been dealing with a crazy delusional persona as they, as the ones there, saw fit and possible.

BUT

But, that all changed 30 seconds before he JUMPED. That's where the guy became a direct proven threat to the captain and crew

Now you people can go "I would have gone and recovered him", but what are you planning if you find him? For me this guy was never getting back on the boat.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 06:51   #71
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 23,918
Images: 2
pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
For everything up till about 30 seconds before the guy JUMPED over are just a bunch of "could of" "should of" "might haves" "maybes" post judgement calls and the captain and crew had been dealing with a crazy delusional persona as they, as the ones there, saw fit and possible.

BUT

But, that all changed 30 seconds before he JUMPED. That's where the guy became a direct proven threat to the captain and crew

Now you people can go "I would have gone and recovered him", but what are you planning if you find him? For me this guy was never getting back on the boat.
Hey.. You dont have a reputation and income to lose.. but we both could lose one thing.. Our freedom.. and I for sure could not look in the mirror again if I did not at least try.
You view it as an amateur responsible only to yourself..
I have to view it from a different perspective..
Everyone measures themselves by a different yardstick.
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 06:52   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,032
Re: Lost crew captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
For everything up till about 30 seconds before the guy JUMPED over are just a bunch of "could of" "should of" "might haves" "maybes" post judgement calls and the captain and crew had been dealing with a crazy delusional persona as they, as the ones there, saw fit and possible.

BUT

But, that all changed 30 seconds before he JUMPED. That's where the guy became a direct proven threat to the captain and crew

Now you people can go "I would have gone and recovered him", but what are you planning if you find him? For me this guy was never getting back on the boat.
If this gets people to think of 'what ifs' then so much the better. The 'should haves', &c may be people thinking their way through, to process the events and devise their own plans.

Even if means to nab him with a gaff, drag him aboard, then treat the wounds you inflicted, it is better to make a rescue than let it turn into a recovery.

As this Captain is finding out, upholding the responsibilities of Captain is a very serious matter.
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 07:23   #73
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 23,918
Images: 2
pirate Re: Lost crew captain charged

Sailorboy..
Some insight into my thought processes/personality.
Back in my 30's I was working as a cocktail barman at a well known cocktail bar in a hotel.. One night after we closed I met up with a friend and we headed for the late night spots for a few drinks.. during the night we ran into a guy who also worked at the hotel and he latched on.
In the early hours we were headed for our respective digs when Alan decided to pick a fight with my mate.
Now Alan is a guy shorter than me and with a severe acne problem which leads to just about everyone calling him Spot.. which needless to say creates a big chip and bad temper when drunk.
My friend on the other hand is a very mild guy with a steel plate in his head from a m/bike crash so I decided to deflect Spots pent up rage to me.. he would not bite, so after telling him he was a waste of space I turned to walk away.. He promptly punched the base of my skull and when I went down he bounced my head on a curb stone splitting my left eyebrow and bridge of my nose wide open.
The next week he spent ducking and diving everytime he saw me around the hotel worried I would do him over.
In the end I collared him and told him to relax..
No grudge.. No friend's and me ganging up to give him a good kicking..
I was stupid enough to turn my back on a street fighter.. I deserved what I got..
Mind.. He was still twitchy around me for a couple of months after.. I used to have a rep back then.
As I said.. Different yardsticks.
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 10:56   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: San Ramon, Ca.
Posts: 8
Re: Lost crew captain charged

The crew, and therefore the captain, administered Transderm Scopolamine patch to the victim. That act intensified the already everpresent captain's responsibility for the welfare of his crew. He thereby owns the responsibility for the side effects that occurred. See below from package insert info:

"Remove the skin patch and call your doctor at once if you have:

eye pain or redness, blurred vision, dilated pupils;
decreased urination, painful or difficult urination;
stomach pain, nausea, vomiting;
a seizure; or
confusion, agitation, extreme fear, hallucinations, unusual thoughts or behavior."

Transderm is a prescription medicine. If not prescribed to the patient by a doctor, then the captain in this case assumes the responsibility for negative consequences as a doctor would. This is regardless of any possible drug interactions with Trazadone that was in the victims personal belongings and on which he may have been.

Transderm is a benign medication for most. But it can, and does, cause side effects. I am sure this is where the governments case is headed. Without any other material facts, negligence leading to death is easy to prove.

Of course, there are many other incriminating issues in the fact pattern for this case relating to the seamanship of the captain. As I see it: 1. 48 hours into a seasick crew of preexisting questionable condition for small boat sea travel in the first place, without the decision to head for the nearest port. 2. Fleeing the scene (of course you can turn a 43 foot yawl around on a dime and stay put-they must have been motoring anyway as the wind was 5 kts and seas calm. The vessel would be the most visible target for the SAR. 3. Not initiating any MOB procedures: a ring buoy was tossed well after (hours?) as the crew member stated " well at least they can say they threw it". Throwing that and other floatations would have served to establish the set and drift for the SAR. 3. Not activating the EPIRB- since the boat apparently had no SAT phone/iridium phone/SSB (?)

This was a mayday event and they treated it like dropping your cel phone overboard. Like "oh well, there's nothing we can do now , it just sunk". You have to stay by the victim in all cases at all times. The boat and rest of the crew was not in danger.

I know we are all sailor's and want to give the benefit of the doubt to the captain. But in this case it sounds like there was negligence.
Smftdr2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2018, 11:36   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Boat: R&C Leopard 40
Posts: 390
Re: Lost crew captain charged

A lot of good comments and unfortunate events like these help me think about what I should do as captain or even as crew on another boat.

What I don't understand is how many people keep saying that the sea sickness is reason to turn around or head to the closest port. I understand that people can take 3 days to adjust. Should we always turn around if a crew person feels sick on day 2? If someone has experience at sea and on boats before mean we should give them more time or less time to acclimate?
__________________

__________________
-Chris
FlyingScot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
captain, crew, lost

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nasa Marine BM-1: Shows "Discharging" when being Charged hoppy Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 13 15-08-2013 09:11
Battery Charging with Load Applied = Incorrectly Charged Batteries Fuss Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 11 31-08-2011 11:44
Officer Charged in Ferry Sinking GordMay Off Topic Forum 13 17-03-2010 11:21
Two Battery Banks Correctly Charged? bryan and wendy Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 20 14-01-2010 08:42
12.5 Volts Fully Charged? Meck Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 7 18-09-2009 08:12



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.