Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-07-2015, 08:50   #31
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I never wrote that I argued with the guy. It's not that I wanted to get closer, I just didn't want to go any further out of my way than I needed to.
I'm not following, were you in some kind of race?

A ship moving at 12 knots with an exclusion zone 2 miles ahead and 2 miles astern would only take 20 minutes to pass.

Or if he was drifting, just go around him.

If you were caught on the freeway for 20 minutes in traffic it would be a non issue, it happens all the time.

I'm just not really sure why this is a big deal.

You should be endeavouring to stay a couple of miles from a ship offshore anyway, its just good manners.


Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 10:15   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 9
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

I work on LNG Tankers and to date there have been ZERO accidents, yes I'll repeat that ZERO....
As was mentioned before when we do the inerting for the vessel we normally have burn the methane gas onboard. There is some companies (and older ships) which do not have the potential and will be venting. Due to the location that (and relative wind) you would normally be steaming for these operations.
Exclusion areas will normally be as per government/local regulations and not as per company regulations.
Our companies regulations to safe navigation is 2nM CPA during open sea, 1nM in confined water (straits, close to harbors, ect). When we are coming into harbors there is no required CPA - basically as much as possible....
We normally have escort tugs from the terminal when we are entering, but that is normally to make sure that no-one impedes us due to draft (+/-12m).
As far as the "bomb" factor goes, highly unlikely - we have a containment system inside a containment system and then still have double bottom tanks surrounding that.
__________________

__________________
Trimax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 10:43   #33
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,053
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Does anyone know what the international safety zone is for an LNG (liquid Natural gas) ship? Yesterday, we came upon an LNG ship drifting ten miles off the coast of Northern Italy with its safety escort ship. We were more than two miles away when the safety ship confronted us... basically, a small destroyer sized tug boat which headed directly towards us at full speed until we altered course by 90 degrees. Then positioned itself between us and the LNG ship at rest about 50- 100 meters off our port beam for four miles, forcing us to alter course to around 2.5 miles away from the ship according to our radar.

Are theses ships allowed to basically hog 16 square miles of ocean where ever they go? If the ship is so vulnerable that a 16 meter sailboat traveling at 6 knots poses that much of a threat, then why does the parent company spend so much effort trying to convince the public how safe the ships are?

Inquiring minds want to know. What a PITA having to go around that thing... 2 mile radius.
It is to protect you should the LNG refrigeration go out. It is transported at very low temps. eg liquid nitrogen temps.. Goes poof if temp rises.
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 11:06   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Westbrook
Boat: Catalina 36 1987
Posts: 17
Images: 5
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Hmmm...LNG tankers are regularly seen in Boston Harbor...safety zone, huh?
__________________
compassrose88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 11:28   #35
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by compassrose88 View Post
Hmmm...LNG tankers are regularly seen in Boston Harbor...safety zone, huh?
The local authorities would set the exclusionary zone. Canada also has a very small safety zone. 500m in front and I think 50 m side and stern.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 12:07   #36
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I'm not following, were you in some kind of race?

A ship moving at 12 knots with an exclusion zone 2 miles ahead and 2 miles astern would only take 20 minutes to pass.

Or if he was drifting, just go around him.

If you were caught on the freeway for 20 minutes in traffic it would be a non issue, it happens all the time.

I'm just not really sure why this is a big deal.

You should be endeavouring to stay a couple of miles from a ship offshore anyway, its just good manners.
A ship sitting dead in the water demanding a 2.5 mile safety zone takes a lot more than 20 minutes to go around if we're traveling at 6 knots. We approached at the edge of a 2 mile safety zone at 4:00 position and was herded out to 2.5 miles at his 6:00 position and the tug was along side us for at least 30 minutes. Plus the point is... Why should we have to do this when we're operating within the Italian regulations. The tug captain was just being a jerk, that's the only possible reason for his behavior... What possible threat could we pose traveling at 6 knots on a 16 meter sailboat?

If you allow any vessel a 2 mile buffer zone for "good manners," how do you actually get anywhere?
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 12:30   #37
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

A couple of miles on open water I said is polite. Off shore it really shouldn't be that hard. I agree, it would take more than 20 minutes if he was stopped.

If you wonder what kind of damage a 16 meter boat can do to a ship, Google USS Cole.

Even though that was a war ship and Amercan, many countries adopted exclusion zones around ships like tankers and ships carrying large numbers of passengers after that incident, because it was proven a small pleasure craft laden with high explosives could take down even something as powerful as an american war ship.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 12:52   #38
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,947
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

And also BBC NEWS | Middle East | Yemen says tanker blast was terrorism
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 12:52   #39
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
A couple of miles on open water I said is polite. Off shore it really shouldn't be that hard. I agree, it would take more than 20 minutes if he was stopped.

If you wonder what kind of damage a 16 meter boat can do to a ship, Google USS Cole.

Even though that was a war ship and Amercan, many countries adopted exclusion zones around ships like tankers and ships carrying large numbers of passengers after that incident, because it was proven a small pleasure craft laden with high explosives could take down even something as powerful as an american war ship.
I don't need to google it, I remember the SPEED BOAT attack on the Cole. Like I wrote, we are two people on a 16 meter US flagged sailboat going 6 knots... Not much of a threat up against a 125ft overly aggressive tug.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 12:52   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: still in a roll of fiberglass around Cape Town
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,201
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
One of these ships contains the potential explosive energy of 50 Hiroshima sized atomic bombs. Not that all that energy could be concentrated like a nuclear bomb but if one were to torch off, there would be a big hole in the ocean. It would be the ultimate coup for one of the resident crazies in the Med. to set one off. Be thankful that you weren't allowed to get closer and that they are being that vigilant about maintaining the 'Safe Zone'.

If Russia was to shut off the natural gas pipelines to Europe, these ships would be the only thing keeping Europe from freezing to death. Probably wouldn't be all that successful as there just not enough of these ships. Expect to see more of them in the future. It's the only way to get Natural Gas across oceans. With the US awash in Natural Gas, expect we will be exporting a lot more of it to Europe and elsewhere with these ships.

There is a bit of controversy about the LNG ships because of their explosive potential. IIRC there is a book titled 'Time Bomb' about the dangers of a LNG ship explosion.
25 years ago educated folks where very worried about boiling liquid expanding vapor explosions aka BLEVEs. I was working in natural gas and went through training for an LNG project that did ont happen. I will not forget the curve they had that showed the safe distance as a function of the mass of LNG stored. I understand that all the concern about BLEVEs was just a concern, I understand there have been no explosions in LNG ships. With a bit of luck it was the concern of people who work with that stuff that kept everyone safe.

If you stay a couple of miles away you wil be safe even if one of those nasty BLEVEs happens. Someone worked this out:

http://202.114.89.60/resource/pdf/7353.pdf

https://www.netl.doe.gov/publication...gt/Quillen.pdf
__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 13:04   #41
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I don't need to google it, I remember the SPEED BOAT attack on the Cole. Like I wrote, we are two people on a 16 meter US flagged sailboat going 6 knots... Not much of a threat up against a 125ft overly aggressive tug.
It wasn't the speed of the speedboat that blew a hole in the side of the ship, it was the belly full of high explosives. Sail boat, speed boat doesn't matter, if they get alongside they can do damage. I believe Green Peace and Sea Sheppard both use sailboats quite effectively for social activism.

The Italian government obviously doesn't want small craft around LNG carriers, regardless of the reason, they aren't being jerks by following local regulations. As you said, you didn't want to go any further out of your way than you had to. They showed you how far out of your way you had to go. Maybe they saw your american flag and decided they better exercise good judgement on your behalf?

Do you think the US navy would be more polite to an Italian flagged yacht getting too close to one of their precious submarines?


Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 13:07   #42
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,947
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I don't need to google it, I remember the SPEED BOAT attack on the Cole. Like I wrote, we are two people on a 16 meter US flagged sailboat going 6 knots... Not much of a threat up against a 125ft overly aggressive tug.

Hmmm ....'US flag'... well that should have sorted them... damn furriners show no respect these days.... tell me... how do you cope with islands, reefs, lighthouses, etc that get in the way?

At least the tug didn't have guns.... call that an exclusion zone?... this is an exclusion zone...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0589.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	22.8 KB
ID:	105902   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0590.jpg
Views:	77
Size:	63.4 KB
ID:	105903  

El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 13:20   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
It wasn't the speed of the speedboat that blew a hole in the side of the ship, it was the belly full of high explosives. Sail boat, speed boat doesn't matter, if they get alongside they can do damage. I believe Green Peace and Sea Sheppard both use sailboats quite effectively for social activism.

The Italian government obviously doesn't want small craft around LNG carriers, regardless of the reason, they aren't being jerks by following local regulations. As you said, you didn't want to go any further out of your way than you had to. They showed you how far out of your way you had to go. Maybe they saw your american flag and decided they better exercise good judgement on your behalf?

Do you think the US navy would be more polite to an Italian flagged yacht getting too close to one of their precious submarines?
p
You need to read the posts prior to writing complete nonsense. I wrote several times that the Italian safety zone is 1.5 miles... we were sailing a course allowing a two mile radius, well within the regulations before being forced to 2.5 miles. The tug boat was not Italian military, it was a LNG company boat. The captain was being an ass forcing us over a mile outside the local regulations and 3-4 miles out of our way...

Hence... My original question..... See and read post #1.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 13:24   #44
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Yes, I've read every post, I was the one who suggested on the original deleted post that exclusion zones were determined by the port state. I was the one who provided you with enough education to know it wasn't internationally regulated.

I explained to you that an unarmed tug would have to act before you reached the security line because they don't have as many escalation tools as a warship to deal with arrogant yachtsmen who don't have enough common sense to give an LNG carrier a wide berth.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 13:27   #45
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,947
Re: LNG Ship Safety Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
You need to read the posts prior to writing complete nonsense. I wrote several times that the Italian safety zone is 1.5 miles... we were sailing a course allowing a two mile radius, well within the regulations before being forced to 2.5 miles. The tug boat was not Italian military, it was a LNG company boat. The captain was being an ass forcing us over a mile outside the local regulations and 3-4 miles out of our way... Unessessarly.

Hence... My original question..... See and read post #1.
Exclusion zones are normally enforced by local authorities.. not military... and I doubt the LNG company owns tugs.

How did an extra mile clearance add 3-4 miles to your passage?
__________________

El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
safety

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Maryland Proposed 'No Discharge' Zone ronbo1 Cruising News & Events 82 13-03-2010 13:00
Keys No Discharge Zone Expansion Captain Bill Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 1 16-02-2010 22:45
Hello from 'Beyond My Comfort Zone!' m1ke Meets & Greets 17 01-10-2009 10:26



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:54.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.