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Old 07-12-2015, 19:34   #46
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
...Since risk assessment is an essential part of how this service is priced, the companies should pay for it.

There would be a lot of benefits to putting this on their plate. If insurance companies managed the survey system there would be a lot more standardization in the survey product. They would be able to establish proper credentials for surveyors, likely weeding out a lot of the questionable characters, and generally raising the bar for the industry. Bulk purchasing of the service would lower costs. And finally, it would remove the often ridiculous hassle boat owners have to go through to get these things done...
Mike--this kind of thinking led us to the disastrous failure Obamacare.
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Old 07-12-2015, 19:47   #47
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

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I can well believe that. Pretty much every "insurance survey" report that I have seen consists of a bare recitation of the boat's vital statistics (builder, date of construction/completion, dimensions, engine type, etc.), registration / serial numbers, and a listing of the type and number of fire extinguishers and life jackets. Essentially, anything that is easily identified or quantified. There is rarely if ever any sort of subjective analysis, or detailed commentary about a boat's condition that would require the author to demonstrate actual judgment/expertise.
This is quite contrary to the insurance survey I had to obtain recently. It not only described everything I had on board but also stated its condition and if it was not up to code (ABYC) the surveyor would write a recommendation. It turned out I had no recommendations....

As Boatpoker mentioned , it depends on the surveyor capacity to do a proper job.
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Old 07-12-2015, 20:12   #48
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

What is it about insurance that boat owners don't understand? If an owner says that the insurance company should pay for the survey, where do you think the $ to pay the surveyor comes from? That's right... From the premiums collected from the boat owners!
It is like the Government providing free healthcare, free schooling, free I-phones... nothing is free! The tax payer is paying for all this stuff.
Get with it you guys and girls! You are paying for all this just as you are paying for surveys that an insurance company requires. Phil
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Old 07-12-2015, 20:26   #49
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

It's even much worse than Phil describes.

Insurance companies have to make a certain amount on their investment. For every $100 a boat owner would spend on a surveyor, the insurance company would add a profit to their expenditure, if they paid the surveyor, perhaps doubling the survey cost.
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Old 07-12-2015, 20:27   #50
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

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It's even much worse than Phil describes.

Insurance companies have to make a certain amount on their investment. For every $100 a boat owner would spend on a surveyor, the insurance company would add a profit to their expenditure, if they paid the surveyor, perhaps doubling the survey cost.
You are dead right, terra nova... cheers, Phil
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Old 07-12-2015, 21:34   #51
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

Sounds like you guys don't believe in market economics. Just ask Walmart, or indeed Canadian provincial healthcare services, about how to bring down costs. You guys are funny.


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Old 07-12-2015, 21:52   #52
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

With respect to surveys and 3d party only insurance: Seems to me that an investigation of the competence of th insured skipper would have more relationship to claims than a list of fire extinguishers, etc, as most insurance surveys are. It isn't something to do with th boat that causes most serious collisions, etc, it is stuff-ups by the operator.

And they don't always seem to "play fair". When I first approached my current insurer for a 3d only policy, it was granted immediately with no survey (and only my word that I had been sailing for a long time). But when renewal time came around, they wanted a survey... a full survey out of the water...much discussion ensued and the survey requirement was rescinded... "till the next year, when we did it all over again. I eventually moved my policy to a different agent, one who did the surveys himself, and for free.

And yet, these folks will insure hundreds of boats left in the Caribe during cyclone season, with the predictable high losses when things go pear shaped. And they are happy to write policies for inshore sailing in the high risk areas but get very worried about trade winds passage insurance. Beats me!

Jim



I dunno how their logic works
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Old 07-12-2015, 21:57   #53
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

We bought our boat well over a year ago and used BoatUS for liability and damage. All if it. No survey requested or required. Of course we had one done long before we settled on a policy and support having a survey done only by a very reputable surveyor.


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Old 07-12-2015, 22:33   #54
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
It's even much worse than Phil describes.

Insurance companies have to make a certain amount on their investment. For every $100 a boat owner would spend on a surveyor, the insurance company would add a profit to their expenditure, if they paid the surveyor, perhaps doubling the survey cost.

So in this example, the insurance company does thousands of surveys a year.... are your saying their cost is still going to be the same as if you or me hired a surveyor on our own? Somehow their cost amerterized is double my cost? Heck, they can probably tack on a huge profit to their negotiated pricing and still come out less than what a surveyor charges me. Buying power works.

Also, as Mike was saying, put the onus on them and see if suddenly our boats really don't need to be looked at that often.

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Old 07-12-2015, 22:41   #55
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

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So in this example, the insurance company does thousands of surveys a year.... are your saying their cost is still going to be the same as if you or me hired a surveyor on our own? Somehow their cost amerterized is double my cost? Heck, they can probably tack on a huge profit to their negotiated pricing and still come out less than what a surveyor charges me. Buying power works.

Also, as Mike was saying, put the onus on them and see if suddenly our boats really don't need to be looked at that often.

Matt
You and Mike are all wet on this. You guys must be thinking they would hire the same few surveyors, over and over, with no consideration for where the boats are located. If insurance companies increase their cost of doing business, the customer will more than make up for it in higher premiums.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:32   #56
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
You and Mike are all wet on this. You guys must be thinking they would hire the same few surveyors, over and over, with no consideration for where the boats are located. If insurance companies increase their cost of doing business, the customer will more than make up for it in higher premiums.
Right ... it's certainly not possible to have a network of accredited surveyors located all across the continent
So you're saying the bulk purchase of these services would result in higher costs, not lower . I had you pegged for a free market capitalist. I guess I was wrong.

Right now the cost of the survey, which IS a cost of insurance, is being borne directly by the consumer. The negotiating power of an individual boater faced with an absolute demand to have this survey done, often under tight timelines, is pretty small. Surveyors are business people. They don't price their service to be nice guys/gals. They price them based on what the market will bear. As someone who understands free market capitalism, I can guarantee the cost is higher for this service overall right now compared to the option I'm suggesting.

With the cost borne by the boat owner, the insurance company has zero incentive to use its much greater market strength to push these rates down. By shifting it onto their shoulders this immediately produces the necessary signals in the market that will drive costs down. It also allows for many other benefits, such as:
  • standardization of the service; as we've read even here in this thread, what you get in an "insurance survey" is all over the map.
  • increased professionalism and weeding out the bad providers; the story of the useless surveyor is also pervasive here. We have too few boatpokers.
And finally, shifting this cost directly onto insurance companies -- which once again is THEIR cost -- will force insurance companies to answer the real question: are these things useful at all? If so, in what ways. Right now there's just a carte blanche demand b/c there's no impact on the insurer. As funjohnson says, if the onus was on them you can bet the efficacy of these things would be tightly questioned. I bet we'd all see a lot less demand for them.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:37   #57
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

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...I can guarantee the cost is higher for this service overall right now compared to the option I'm suggesting...
Mike--your guaranty is not worth the paper it's (not) written on.
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:20   #58
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

Just went online and got same day quote no survey for full and liability from geico and a quote from boat US offered liability only. 33 foot Cheoy lee. Geico 8000 hull 750, liability 350. Boat US liability only 450


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Old 10-12-2015, 12:32   #59
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

Ridiculous prices compared to Allstate.
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Old 10-12-2015, 13:06   #60
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Re: List of insurers that don't require a survey

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I will start: progressive.



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Actually thats not True! Progressive only doesn't require a survey if the value is under a certain amount or you are getting liability insurance. Just went through that with them this past summer!
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