Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-12-2015, 10:24   #1
Registered User
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: www.USCGMaster.com
Boat: Tartan 33
Posts: 1,881
Liability of Adrift Vessel

After reading another thread about a missing boat my mind went to the single-handed sailor or large vessel that may encounter the vessel at night. As well all know when the next cold front comes the Gulf Stream will stand-up and make sighting the vessel even more difficult.

Who would be liable for damage?

Even keeping a good watch us predicated on the other vessel having appropriate running lights. If a commercial vessel knew they hit another boat, logically they would begin a SAR procedure.

Maybe I am cranky, but not properly securing the vessel was like leaving a loaded gun around ---- regardless of ones net worth!

So who would be liable??


Sent from my iPhone- please forgive autocorrect errors.
__________________

__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ismael ---- NEW website! www.USCGMaster.com
Snore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 11:03   #2
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

Do not be silly.

You hit anything in open water, you take damage, you pay for your repairs. No liability.

In local waters, some liability, depending on local laws. E.g. in some jurisdictions when an abandoned craft ends up on the reef or in a nav channel, the local govt will have the right to request clean-up. Similarly, a private operator may request damages but only when the 'guilty' craft got abandoned for no good reason. This will be next to impossible to prove there was no good reason. Unless you have huge a law firm behind your claim.

That's why you should be keeping watch at all times. To protect your own boat from hitting anything and getting sunk or badly damaged.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 15:00   #3
Registered User
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: www.USCGMaster.com
Boat: Tartan 33
Posts: 1,881
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

b

I will defer to your experience on this.

Seemed like a case for Dewey, Cheatem and Howe


Sent from my iPhone- please forgive autocorrect errors.
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ismael ---- NEW website! www.USCGMaster.com
Snore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 15:50   #4
Registered User
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,522
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Who would be liable for damage?
Nobody. Hit something out there on the big blue, and it's pretty much your problem.

Which is why I don't understand why people who abandon ship get to watch their ships float away instead of them being sunk.

Saying Gil left a loaded gun is being silly - not just because the chances of actually sailing into an abandoned / adrift boat are close to 0 and there are bigger risks to worry about, but also because this wasn't something he did on purpose. Bet he wants that boat found and back a lot more then you do
__________________
"Il faut Ítre toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 16:21   #5
Registered User
 
gamayun's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Oakland, CA
Boat: Freedom 38
Posts: 1,231
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

Agree. Sh*t happens. Plus, if anything were to happen outside of the EEZ, which is the high seas for most of this planet, then you really have no country to complain to....though you can try.
__________________
gamayun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 16:24   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,713
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

With regard to liability and damages:

We refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.

__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 16:45   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 596
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
With regard to liability and damages:

We refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.



Later,
Dan
__________________
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 16:49   #8
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

From a COLREGS point of view, a drifting vessel with no one on board....is by definition... 'Not Under Command'!,
So the liability remains with the manned vessel to stay clear.
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 21:12   #9
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
From a COLREGS point of view, a drifting vessel with no one on board....is by definition... 'Not Under Command'!,
So the liability remains with the manned vessel to stay clear.
If it shows two blacks balls during the day and two red lights at night.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 21:27   #10
Registered User
 
Training Wheels's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Left coast.
Posts: 673
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

^ +1


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Training Wheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 21:34   #11
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
If it shows two blacks balls during the day and two red lights at night.
I reckon it might be considered NUC without the balls of lights
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 21:37   #12
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

If it is adrift and unmanned....who is turning the 2 red lights on and off?

The intent of maintaining a proper lookout is to avoid unlit obstacles or otherwise hit at your own peril and responsibility.
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 22:04   #13
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

On A 2012 delivery from Maui we has a radio net with some other boats in which we were reporting tsunami debris. Two boats reported seeing overturn hulls. I doubt if the owners would have had any liability.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2015, 02:45   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,886
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

You have two considerations:
- Legal
- Practical

Legally, it's going to depend what the circumstances are and what is reasonable including the circumstances of the watch for the boat that hits the drifter. Assuming a reasonable case could be made that the boat should have been sunk or otherwise made safe, liability could be assessed.

Practically, finding the owner, proving they had time and ability to sink the boat and then they have enough money to make it worthwhile...pretty slim odds.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2015, 03:04   #15
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Re: Liability of Adrift Vessel

I see your point if purposely abandoned (especially in territorial waters)......but in Gil's case where the yacht inadvertently drifted into open waters, the onus is on the watchkeeper to have spotted by all and any means, including radar.

Otherwise the tens of thousands of containers lost overboard with maybe 10% floating, would keep the salvage operators and lawyer very busy.

Not to mention that whales would now need to carry liability insurance....
__________________

__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
mandatory 3rd party liability insurance for foreign (canadian) vessel in Europe calbergen Europe & Mediterranean 6 10-09-2014 14:11
Dual Vessel Views -vs- Single Vessel View on Dual Cummings MV WOLFPACK Marine Electronics 0 12-04-2014 07:45
Vessel on a Vessel rj_whitten Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 7 27-03-2011 09:10
Set Adrift Stede The Sailor's Confessional 8 29-11-2007 14:31
adrift! sneuman Pacific & South China Sea 1 07-03-2006 22:56



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:05.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.