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Old 15-09-2015, 10:03   #16
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

Did *anyone* actually read the clip at Noonsite? This has *NOTHING* to do with heat. It's about the fact that LED's do not emit the same color temperature and/or distribution pattern as incandescent bulbs. Therefore, for navigation light fixtures which were designed for and tested with incandescent bulbs, if you replace said incandescent bulbs with LEDs, and are involved in an "incident", your insurance coverage may be denied. So, as many have said on this and other forums, if you want LED nav lights, install compliant and approved LED Navigation light fixtures. If you don't want to spend the $$$ on new LED fixtures, keep your old fixtures and install the approved incandescent bulbs.
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Old 15-09-2015, 10:49   #17
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

IANAL, but I have read a lot of insurance policies and contracts...

If you buy a bulb that is rated marine and advertised as a replacement bulb, such as:

DR. LED Festoon Star Navigation LED Replacement Bulb | West Marine

The claim would have to be paid. As a boat owner, you maintained the vessel with what you believed by advertising and where you bought the bulb that it was a suitable incandescent to LED replacement. If the colored housing was damaged or already sun burnt and difficult to distinguish the red and green with incandescent, you could already have a claim looked at as you failed to maintain the housing that deteriorated.

If you install a different type replacement bulb that does not output on the full arc, then I can see where they could try and deny. That is when you have an attorney argue that only an idiot would replace a tube with a G4 Disc and you insure for idiot. Or just buy a bulb like the one above and keep your packaging and receipts and don't worry about it ever again.

The only real out the insurance companies have is failure to maintain or flat out negligence or anything that is expressly denied in the policy itself. I have seen some interesting policies that pretty much deny everything up front, though.

Sort of like the famous case where an impellor caused an engine to overheat, but the idiot kept running the boat until it caught fire. It was a maintenance item that lead to the loss, but the idiot caused it by continuing to run the obviously overheating engine.
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Old 15-09-2015, 11:31   #18
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I think my Marine Beam LED running lights are colored LED's behind colored lens.
I know the lens is colored, bet they wouldn't sell many running lights with clear lens, although it would be a conversation starter wouldn't it.
I can see as how colored LED's would be effective and possibly more efficient though.
The coloured lens filters out all wavelengths of light except that one colour (red or green), so MOST of the light is wasted (blocked). White light is made up of all colours. The beauty of LED is that it can produce just the wavelength of light (colour) you desire. This is totally efficient. So yes, clear lenses make sense. However, they will likely still tint the lenses for aesthetic purposes.
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Old 15-09-2015, 11:35   #19
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

The link on LED heat was just plain inaccurate.

Any new technology get's better over time. Early LED"s used really crude ways to manage the power going to the LED. Many of these had heat dissipation problems. But that's mostly in the past except for crappy mystery brand bulbs.

As mentioned, this is all about color not brightness or heat. Today's LED's can do almost any color. If you put an LED with a color that's very different from incandescent (about 2700 kelvin) behind the same red or green lens, it won't look the same. You can either change the color of the LED or the color of the lens.

But bulbs aren't CG approved, it's the entire fixture. This testing and certification is done by the fixture manufacturer. Technically, you have to use the same type of bulb as they used when certifying to have a certified nav light.

I also have the Marinebeam LED nav lights and think they're great. They have no noticeable heat, RF interference and aren't bothered by the voltage variations that are common on a boat. They also have shown no sign of water intrusion.

https://store.marinebeam.com/led-bi-...igation-light/

And a final thought for ashore and afloat - the switch to LED bulbs from incandescent and florescent bulbs will save more energy than will be created by all the wind and solar generation put together.

That's not to suggest we shouldn't move to wind and solar but getting rid of incandescent bulbs may be the "killer app" for climate change.
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Old 15-09-2015, 11:52   #20
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

I also have the marinebeam nav lights. I think as long as you replace the entire fitting and don't just try to shoehorn in a white LED bulb into a coloured mount, you are fine.
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Old 15-09-2015, 12:38   #21
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I think my Marine Beam LED's seem to pull about .1W, now just the physics behind it, if you convert .1W to heat directly, that isn't much heat, you can't have heat without current?
I think the MarineBeam LED fixture is going to consume about 1.2W (0.1A x 12V). Most of this will go into heat, and the LEDs do need some sort of heat-sinking which is designed into the fixture. I agree, Marinebeam puts out a quality product.

And yes, the issue in the OP is the color and intensity of a "white" LED as seen through a colored lens. White LEDs emit a fairly narrow spectrum which contains very little red or green in it. LEDs that emit red or green will be way more efficient at generating these colors.

And yes, the navlight approval is for a specific fixture, with specific bulbs. Replacement bulbs, even if they actually meet the technical requirements, will void the approval. They may be "legal", but proving it might be a challenge.
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Old 15-09-2015, 12:59   #22
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

If you use red and green coloured LEDs inside a fixture with coloured lenses, the light output is still pretty good. I've had a harder time getting a strong red output; the green is bright as heck.

Yes the above isn't USCG approved. But plenty visible nonetheless. I intend to have all of my accidents in broad daylight, anyways.
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Old 15-09-2015, 13:00   #23
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I know the lens is colored, bet they wouldn't sell many running lights with clear lens, although it would be a conversation starter wouldn't it.
I've bought 3 sets of running lights, for 3 different boats, from 3 different manufacturers. All had clear lenses. I didn't have any trouble figuring out the front from the back, which with side lights is all you need to do to get them right.

That said, these were new, sealed fixtures, not just the bulb. I'd never put an LED "bulb" in a fixture made for a filament bulb, for all the reasons above, as well as because the main reason I went to LEDs was because I never want to replace, re-seat or clean the connections for a navigation bulb again!
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Old 15-09-2015, 13:07   #24
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

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Ever hear of infrared LEDs? That's exactly what they do, generate heat.

No, I have never seen LED's meant to generate heat, although they may exist.
I do know however that my TV remote that uses IR LED's does not generate much heat at all. I doubt many do.

These IR chemsticks that we used in the Military for NVG's, emit IR light, but no heat as well
http://tnvc.com/shop/infrared-chem-l...ticks-10-pack/
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Old 15-09-2015, 13:17   #25
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

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I think the MarineBeam LED fixture is going to consume about 1.2W (0.1A x 12V). Most of this will go into heat, and the LEDs do need some sort of heat-sinking which is designed into the fixture. I agree, Marinebeam puts out a quality product.
I looked on their site and I think it's 2W, either way it's certainly not .1W like I first thought, although I believe my interior lights are, at least I tun on a dozen of them and get about a 1 amp draw on an analog meter.

I looked at their Tri-color while I was there, and it does not say CG approved, while most of their other products take care to point out it is, I assume therefore it may not be Colreg / CG approved?
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Old 15-09-2015, 13:22   #26
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I looked on their site and I think it's 2W, either way it's certainly not .1W like I first thought, although I believe my interior lights are, at least I tun on a dozen of them and get about a 1 amp draw on an analog meter.

I looked at their Tri-color while I was there, and it does not say CG approved, while most of their other products take care to point out it is, I assume therefore it may not be Colreg / CG approved?
I think you are confusing watts and amps. 1 amp @ 12 volts = 12 watts.
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Old 15-09-2015, 13:27   #27
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

I have put white LED's into old incandescent fixtures, and see very little difference in color. Of course you have to be mindful of what color temperature the LED's are, and if they are poorly manufactured junk (thus overheating, or burning up). That said, I have looked at some of the faded, yellowed, discolored lenses on old boats, and I think they would do far more harm to the quality of the light than the difference between an LED bulb and an incandescent. In fact it is what prompted me to buy a "proper" LED bow light fixture for my new "old" boat. To each their own, I am not trying to start a fight, I'm just saying those that obsess about the exact color of an led shining through a lens designed for an incandescent are ignoring a big variable in light color quality.
As to the title of the thread, I think it is just insurance companies being evil if true. I just cannot envision the color temperature of a navigation light being so out of whack that it could not be distinguished if it was red, green, or white. Sure brightness could be an issue, but so could it by putting a 1 watt incandescent bulb in a 10 watt socket. So long as you have equivalent brightness, they are just looking for a reason not to pay out some money they are obligated to pay out.
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Old 15-09-2015, 14:00   #28
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

I crossed the atlantic on a swan48. The skipper had invested in LED nav lights. The entire fixtures were replaced. Soon after leaving spain, the red nav light failed. I spent hours in the chain locker checking the wiring, volts, etc. Finally pulled the whole fitting off and connected to 12v...nothing...dead.

If we had a conventional fixture, we could have easily changed the lightbulb, but this was a sealed unit. At the canaries, we wasted our time looking for a replacement LED fixture (this was 2010). We finally bought a conventional incandescent replacement fixture. Unfortunately, we left before it was installed. Installing it underway was a miserable affair, with spray and waves breaking over the bow. Needless to say, the new light worked for only a few hours before it failed. Likely failed due to seawater getting inside during the install.

We finally solved the problem, kinda, by extracting the red lens, and cannabalizing a 12v spotlight. Basically built a new light out of duct tape. It wasn't pretty, but it lit up and stayed lit up.

Soon after, the batteries were so low we stopped using any lights altogether. Yes, there were electrical problems. This was just one of them. Not my boat.
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Old 15-09-2015, 14:39   #29
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

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Originally Posted by wiekeith View Post
I think what needs to be understood is how much red or green light is actually produced by the LEDs used.

With standard non-LED nav lights the filter doesn't change the bulbs 'white' light into red or green, the filter only allows the red or green coulors of its spectrum through i.e. it filters out other coulors. So if you replace the incandescent bulb with a 'white' LED bulb that only produces half the red or green light intensities, then your filtered light will only be half the intensity that it was.
Agreed. This is the issue. Generic Led is fine for the anchor light. Need specialty led for running lights.

No idea what why the op had hot led's.
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Old 15-09-2015, 14:58   #30
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Re: LED Bulbs Invalidate Insurance

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I think you are confusing watts and amps. 1 amp @ 12 volts = 12 watts.

I did in that post I just screwed up, but I do understand the difference. I'll say what I always say, I wish we would dump this whole amp thing and only use Watts as amps are variable as to voltage, whereas Watts are not.

My old incandescent bulbs were 12W, or 1 amp ea at 12V, the LED's if I turn on a dozen, draw 1 amp of current, meaning of course they are about .1 amp ea. Seems at least in this case that LED's cut my electrical consumption by a factor of 10, making them worth the money to me.
The NAV light according to the website is 2W, which if you use 12V means .6 amp.


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