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Old 29-11-2010, 23:00   #76
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Ahh.. Here's the future anyway:

Seasteading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tho' I won't be able to afford one of the floating "gated communities" anyway.

How/where do you find this stuff? This is wild. I don't want the beach condos to take over the sea. :-(


Or, maybe they should build the first one in Two Times Texas. They could start a recyling program.
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Old 30-11-2010, 05:07   #77
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... Seriously Gordon, you are right to be (hypothetically) concerned about CO ...
My name is Gord.
My comments regarding CO toxicity were directed to those who might think that no hazard can exist unless it can be seen/smelled/tasted.
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Old 30-11-2010, 06:31   #78
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[QUOTE=Whimsy;568524]Some might find it a little suspicious that in the pictures of dead, rotting birds full of human-made debris, the birds have apparently eaten no "natural" debris - not a piece of driftwood, not a mollusk shell, not a rock, nor any of the other thousands of naturally-occurring debris in and around the ocean, even though these items of natual debris outnumber items of man-made debris by many orders of magnitude...

Some kooks might argue that if a bird would eat a bic lighter, he would also eat a rock or a seashell or a piece of driftwood... But its clear that anyone who would spread rumors such as that are paid shills for Big Plastic, probably vote to the Right, drive Hummers, keep their thermostats set on 85* in the winter and 60* in the summer, and don't believe that their every fart is melting an ice floe and drowning a polar bear.

But I believe the pictures are real and not staged by radical whackjobs with a political agenda. Any emotionally sensitive person can clearly see - through the tears in their eyes - that these birds really did die horrible, painful deaths from eating the trash of an evil society that is little more than a cancer on Gaia, our Mother Earth. Its important to feel this tragedy in your heart, and not to think about it in your mind..

Its really easy to see how a bird might mistake pieces of trash for fish or other natural foods they normally eat. After all, they can't really see, feel, smell or taste things - it’s a wonder they haven’t gone extinct long ago.

Why, just the other day I was walking my dog and I had the same problem - I was hungry so I ate an old discarded Bic lighter I found in the ditch because I thought it might be a hamburger, then found a cigarette butt and ate that because it I thought it was a French fry. For desert I found and wolfed down two pieces of rubber off a tire because I thought they were candy bars.

By this time, it was no surprise to see that my dog had eaten about a gallon of plastic packing peanuts out of an old trash bag because they are roughly the same size and shape as his dogfood and he couldn’t tell the difference (he's colorblind). He then ate a steel bottle cap - guess he thought it was a dog biscuit.

Then I saw this poor deer back in the woods behind my house and the full extent of this tragedy dawned on me; the problem isn’t limited to the ocean - MY GOD!!! ITS SPREAD TO LAND!!! AAAAAHHHHHH! This deer might have survived eating the caulk tube, the vitamin bottle and salsa jar, but the plastic water bottle wedged in its jaws preventing it from being able to enunciate its message to the 911 operator... Oh, what a terrible way to go!

[/QUOTE
Oh my God They've killed Bambi!
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Old 30-11-2010, 06:54   #79
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What a load of absolute crap those pictures are... anyone who cares to go down to the beach and actually WATCH seagulls will see that they are pretty discriminatory... even the younger ones.. they'll flip and play with things but they will not just gobble indiscriminately...
Furthermore next time you go out to sea and see a REAL seabird..
not the ***** Hawks called seagulls that throng the beaches and fields inland.... throw them a piece of bread or something else edible and you'll see they ignore it... they know exactly what they're looking for...
As for the gulls in the pictures... yes they probably did die painfully... gulls kill their own kind if they are ill, weak or old...
I've seen gulls drown other gulls by forcing them underwater till they died or just pecking them to death... its called survival of the fittest...
We humans used to practice it until a very short time ago in our history...
Those pictures were set up purely for propaganda purposes to support/fund a cause... I'm not saying the cause is wrong... its not... we are bad for nature and its inhabitants.. but this method of promotion IS bad for the cause...
The morons/fanatics will fall for it but... the more rational and intelligent will turn away because of the deceit...
And those are the ones that are needed for change to happen....
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Old 30-11-2010, 06:57   #80
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Oh my God They've killed Bambi!



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Its really easy to see how a bird might mistake pieces of trash for fish or other natural foods they normally eat. After all, they can't really see, feel, smell or taste things - it’s a wonder they haven’t gone extinct long ago.
Around here we've got Urban Seagulls the size of Americans - and from much the same diet, courtesy of fast & processed food from garbage raiding

They are also non-smokers The only thing they won't ever swoop down for (in hand or when thrown on the ground) are ciggarettes. And I don't think our birdlife is especially bright.
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Old 30-11-2010, 07:23   #81
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... we are bad for nature and its inhabitants..
So, just to be clear, are you saying that Homo sapiens sapiens are not inhabitants of nature?
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Old 30-11-2010, 07:26   #82
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So, just to be clear, are you saying that Homo sapiens sapiens are not inhabitants of nature?
Once... many, many centuries ago....
Now we're just the abusers and manipultors...
The natural order is co-existance... we don't...
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Old 30-11-2010, 07:37   #83
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. . . The natural order is co-existence... we don't...
Sorry can't resist - the actual "natural order" is "eat and/or get eaten." Each level of organisms feed on the next lower level literally. That's where the phrase "top of the food chain" describes humans, and certain other very large animals. Co-existence or getting along only lasts until the larger animal gets hungry again.
- -
Lamentamos, mas não consigo resistir - a "ordem natural" real é "comer e / ou ser comido." Cada nível de organismos forrageiros no próximo nível mais baixo, literalmente. É onde a frase "topo da cadeia alimentar", descreve os seres humanos, e alguns outros animais muito grandes. Co-existência ou ficar junto só dura até o maior animal fica com fome novamente.
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Old 30-11-2010, 08:06   #84
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Sorry can't resist - the actual "natural order" is "eat and/or get eaten." Each level of organisms feed on the next lower level literally. That's where the phrase "top of the food chain" describes humans, and certain other very large animals. Co-existence or getting along only lasts until the larger animal gets hungry again.
- -
Lamentamos, mas não consigo resistir - a "ordem natural" real é "comer e / ou ser comido." Cada nível de organismos forrageiros no próximo nível mais baixo, literalmente. É onde a frase "topo da cadeia alimentar", descreve os seres humanos, e alguns outros animais muito grandes. Co-existência ou ficar junto só dura até o maior animal fica com fome novamente.
A good point indeed... but if you look at nature in general lions kill a wildebeest and the pack feeds, and do not kill again till its all eaten...
But the fox is an exception.. he gets in the coop and slaughters everything... its not for food.. its bloodlust and because he can... sound familiar..
We don't need baby seal meat and fur.. we have the technology to reprocess plastic to make our fleeces... and many other things to keep us warm... we don't slaughter because of need... but because we can...
There are many examples of abuse and indiscriminate destruction so lets just accept the fact we are the Human Insanity Virus that will ultimately bring life on earth to a premature end...
Most religions Hindu, Buddhist, American Indian and the offshoots of ancient Judeaism which include Jew, Catholic and Christian and Muslim all say we are the Custodians of the Planet....
Is it not a shame we've turned it into a Project Ghetto....
PS; I do not believe in a god so not getting holy.. just stating religous history...
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Old 30-11-2010, 08:14   #85
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I am a member of PETA. People eating tasty animals.
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Old 30-11-2010, 08:14   #86
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Most religions Hindu, Buddhist, American Indian and the offshoots of ancient Judeaism which include Jew, Catholic and Christian and Muslim all say we are the Custodians of the Planet....
The men with the funny hats* also say "there is not enough to go around - for you".

Full marks for consistency though




*why do they always need a funny hat to lead religions?
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Old 30-11-2010, 08:18   #87
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The men with the funny hats* also say "there is not enough to go around - for you".

Full marks for consistency though




*why do they always need a funny hat to lead religions?

To pretend they brains sre bigger than ours...
Well..... gotta keep these guys on their toes.... chuck another horse steak on the 'Barbie' for me while your at it....
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Old 30-11-2010, 08:28   #88
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And the lion will lay down with the lamb............till the lion gets hungry.
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Old 30-11-2010, 09:03   #89
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I am of the opinion that nobody should assume control of the oceans by creating their own laws, good intentions or not. The oceans are the one place left where humans have the freedoms that we so desire. Respecting the oceans is something that should come from within and not be legislated upon.

great idea/theory.. Only problem is that it's NOT working... The lowest common denominator has so far crapped in and upon the ocean in ever greater amounts.. Have you seen the Pacific garbage patch?? And that's just what's on the surface!! Does NY still barge their garbage to sea??

If it's cost effective to polute the ocean and there is no law to stop it man won't bat an eye while doing the polluting..It's all about PROFIT.. Now add a $100,000 fine for polluting and maybe it's not a good bet..
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Old 30-11-2010, 09:32   #90
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My name is Gord.
My comments regarding CO toxicity were directed to those who might think that no hazard can exist unless it can be seen/smelled/tasted.
Sorry about the name thing, Gord.

And since I was previously commenting on the density of NE PAC gyre trash that I've seen, I assumed at least some of your comment was directed my way.

A few comments, and then I've probably run out of useful things to say (and perhaps I've already crossed that line?):

My beef with the TED presentation (remember that?) was that the woman speaking referred to a "trash island twice the size of Texas", and implied that it was made from trash dumped from ships. Define "Island" however you like, but islands have a portion above the waterline, and the idea of Texas Trash Island is provably false by direct observation.

Of course there are bad things that can not be seen/smelled/tasted. But just because someone claims there is a big problem from one of these, doesn't mean we should take them at their word. Before we take extraordinary and disruptive measures, we should collect data or otherwise show that such a problem exists. Some of the people making these claims about the gyre have, through their deceptions and hyperbole, shown me that they are not to be trusted. This is unfortunate, as I believe that there is a problem, I just don't know how bad it is.

I spent a few minutes yesterday looking for new data from any towed-net surveys, but what I found was of marginal use. Reports from the Agalita Foundation are remarkably number-free, using phrases like "significantly more than seen in previous studies". They mention analysis being done to quantify the data, but it seems that this has not been completed.

One other survey at least provided numbers, but these were also lacked enough data for me to evaluate the results. These mentioned "10,000 pieces per (some volume of water)", but not how large the pieces were. These pieces were obviously large enough to be caught in the fine-mesh net, but a trash volume number would have been nice.

Perhaps the actual data is in the full reports -- what I saw were the web-summaries.

But we do know that there is no Texas-sized Trash Island. Anyone who uses Trash Island to support their cause is either ignorant, or lying.
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