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Old 21-06-2015, 17:05   #76
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Goodness! a rehash of everything you have said previously.
I love the attempt at legalese to define what the colregs mean, and then apportion blame to fishermen and people who take a leak.

Heres the bottom line. Rather than point fingers, you follow what you think it means.

It applies to everyone, but I cannot force you to comply, and in saying that, no government has ever banned single handed sailing. Until that happens, the rule must be open to interpretation other than your definition.

A court will apportion responsibility in the event of an incident. A court might very well define the lack of an on duty watch as negligence, NOT because there was a lack of a physical watch on deck, but because there was NO watch even using other means available and in consideration of the conditions. If a person was watching RADAR and was alerted to a problem, they would have taken steps to avert it. That is a watch.

By your reckoning, a Submarine is in breach of rule 5.

It is not as clear cut as you would like it be. Common sense dictates that awareness of the surrounds is mandatory. I would argue that the environment and weather and location will determine sight and sound and by other means necessary or available. I would argue that a properly set up RADAR and AIS and sonar will alert a mariner far quicker than manual sight and sound in nearly all situations. This means I have "sight and sound" at all times.

You freely admit to "breaching" your own understanding of the rules. That is ...... a liberty taken that has no excuse. In the next breath you argue time limits on taking a pee and disparage fisherfolk. Well in the two minutes you go below and get hit, you will admit that a watch was not kept. I would agree, You never set the sonar or the RADAR or the AIS for 1/2 mile watch or if crewed or guests, you never asked to be covered or the instruments watched.

Sorry Pelagic, it is not a good post.
"At all times" and "as well as" rather than "or" isn't exactly legalese, it's what colreg 5 clearly says. You may not like it or wish it said something else, but it doesn't.

Yes, I do admit to "breaching" the letter of the law, but only for a few (2) minutes at a time because I'm honest and have made no claim to be perfect and it's partially because I'm too scared to take a longer break from having someone on watch. But that's a far cry from giving myself permission to take a 30 minute break or deciding that most of the time while fishing in foggy conditions I'm just too busy to check my radar screen as many fishermen do. I'm not making anything up about them or "disparaging fisherfolk" as being bad people, but they aren't keeping a proper watch for long periods of time. The accident being discussed is an example of a very inadequate watch being kept aboard the fishing vessel and I'm just saying it's not unusual for them to get so wrapped up in what's going aboard their own vessel that they forget about keeping watch for other vessels. I have lobstermen friends who would wholeheartedly agree with me, including themselves. It's not a big secret that with 2 guys aboard, one sternman facing backwards stuffing bait into bags and cleaning out lobster traps, and the other guy driving the boat focused primarily on the trap he's trying to grab and haul up while not getting tangled in the pot warp, and on what his sternman is doing, while the boat is almost constantly turning, nobody is looking very hard at the radar or keeping any kind of watch even in thick fog. It's OK most times, but once in awhile, it results in tragedy such as in the video.

You're right that it's not a law that's currently enforced on singlehanders but rather is my own opinion of what the colreg means. I have given my own interpretation of the colreg and spelled out my reasons why I feel the way I do. I understand that others have a different interpretation and have their own reasons. But I don't see your claim that "as well as" really means "or" to be a valid reason to ignore the requirement in colreg 5 to at all times keep a constant lookout by sight and listening in favor of solely using electronic means while you sleep. That's my opinion, which is what this forum is for. Perhaps you'd feel less threatened if I began every post with the qualifier "In my opinion...?"
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Old 21-06-2015, 17:16   #77
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
But was she looking astern?... thats where a lot of bad stuff comes from.

I don't know how many times I have sat in the cockpit and observed the helmsman blissfully unaware of something big and nasty coming up astern until its pointed out to them..... best done at about a mile or less.... its a lesson few forget in a hurry...
In this case I don't remember her looking towards our stern but it was only for a few minutes that I watched her and we were motoring in clear and calm conditions in an area (Eggemoggin Reach) with no large commercial vessels, so I was happy to see that she seemed alert and was taking her watchkeeping responsibility seriously. We'll continue to work on more advanced techniques and discuss less common circumstances as time goes on. To me, the important thing was that it demonstrated to me that she was trying her best to keep us safe, and obviously wasn't thinking of herself as just a passenger. But you raise a very good point that keeping a proper watch means looking all around, not just straight ahead.
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Old 21-06-2015, 17:23   #78
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
You will not be trapped IN the vessel if you only wear it while on deck. Also all wearers of harness/lifejackets should have a knife ready to hand attached to the harness/jacket on a lanyard preferably. Easy to smack your head on the way over, on boom, fitting, or side of vessel. One must assume unconsciousness on entering the water or shortly thereafter. Blow only inflation is worse than useless. Hard to take that second breath underwater!
………..
No criticism to you but in the case of the Orca, the opposite occurred. The deceased was on deck (in the cockpit) wearing an operational auto inflating lifejacket. It didn't save her and probably was a significant contributor to her death.

I do concur with you regarding not wearing auto inflating below decks and this was party proved in Orca's case. The skipper would have most likely perished if his jacket worked as intended. As has been posted several times .

Personally I prefer the manual inflate as I think it is more likely that I will be conscious if I land in the water and I weigh this against the perceived shortcoming of the auto inflate. Again no criticism to others who take the opposite tack. We all have to make our own risk assessments and live (or die) with the outcomes.

Again, in the Ocra's case, the skipper did make a risk assessment before going below and unfortunately for all concerned, he got it wrong. It wasn't for the lack of thinking, it was for deducing the wrong result.
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Old 21-06-2015, 17:23   #79
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

If I needing to "go" or withdraw/deploy fenders without a mate to continue watch, I turn the engine to idle or neutral as needed if there are no foreseen difficulties.


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Old 21-06-2015, 17:40   #80
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Indeed, luck is a component in any success. The trick is to woo her effectively. Unusually this involves being surprisingly boring. And, you know, I've never understood the (otherwise rather lovely) "but for the grace of God" thing, as it implies that while that grace saved "I", it really screwed the other bugger!
The "but for the grace of God" thing is a question of worldview, and I for one firmly believe everyone has the privilege to form one. Whether or not it is a good one is a different story. One persons "luck" is anothers "Grace". The grace idea is based on the thought that no-one has a right to live, we all are alive as a matter of privilege rather than rights. The fact that some remain alive a bit longer than others is unmerited favour (grace) from the hand of God. But this grace also stands in tension with another reality. Relying on grace is no excuse for carelessness or as Muckle Flugga puts it, we need to be "effectively wooing her" ie. "luck". Which I also rather like for its poetic nature! Whether your worldview dictates it as "luck" or "grace" we don't tempt either by carelessness, as with driving a car it is of no use having utter confidence in your own abilities to navigate if at some point you are going to put your confidence in the other fella behind the wheel. IMHO.
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Old 21-06-2015, 17:46   #81
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Goodness! a rehash of everything you have said previously.
I love the attempt at legalese to define what the colregs mean, and then apportion blame to fishermen and people who take a leak.

Heres the bottom line. Rather than point fingers, you follow what you think it means.

It applies to everyone, but I cannot force you to comply, and in saying that, no government has ever banned single handed sailing. Until that happens, the rule must be open to interpretation other than your definition.

A court will apportion responsibility in the event of an incident. A court might very well define the lack of an on duty watch as negligence, NOT because there was a lack of a physical watch on deck, but because there was NO watch even using other means available and in consideration of the conditions. If a person was watching RADAR and was alerted to a problem, they would have taken steps to avert it. That is a watch.

By your reckoning, a Submarine is in breach of rule 5.

It is not as clear cut as you would like it be. Common sense dictates that awareness of the surrounds is mandatory. I would argue that the environment and weather and location will determine sight and sound and by other means necessary or available. I would argue that a properly set up RADAR and AIS and sonar will alert a mariner far quicker than manual sight and sound in nearly all situations. This means I have "sight and sound" at all times.

You freely admit to "breaching" your own understanding of the rules. That is ...... a liberty taken that has no excuse. In the next breath you argue time limits on taking a pee and disparage fisherfolk. Well in the two minutes you go below and get hit, you will admit that a watch was not kept. I would agree, You never set the sonar or the RADAR or the AIS for 1/2 mile watch or if crewed or guests, you never asked to be covered or the instruments watched.

Sorry Pelagic, it is not a good post.
LOL..No apologies necessary weavis.

Some people view COLREGS as a legalised Religion , while others view them simply as a philosophy.

Jtsailjt's post straddled both camps with some good examples of a dangerous common assumption that.... The odds of avoiding a collision is doubled because of the other guy keeping a lookout.

It is that which I applauded

I am in the latter camp where the philosophy of good seamanship trumps the Rules... and I disdain PC images of being a good host on my yacht, instead of a strict, but humane captain.

Those of us who have spent months in marine college listening to hours of rehashing/ arguing the rules and legal cases with an experienced instructor , eventually realize that knowing when a departure from those rules is necessary, is the mindset/philosophy that takes some longer to accept than others.

This Forum serves the same purpose and those who wish to be a competent master.... should realize that protecting your crew and yourself from adopting sloppy practices.... is a never ending challenge... worth repeating
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Old 21-06-2015, 17:47   #82
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
But was she looking astern?... thats where a lot of bad stuff comes from.

I don't know how many times I have sat in the cockpit and observed the helmsman blissfully unaware of something big and nasty coming up astern until its pointed out to them..... best done at about a mile or less.... its a lesson few forget in a hurry...
Anyone who's ever run a fast boat down the ICW, will get a pretty quick education about how rarely many folks ever bother to look astern :-) Not to mention, the failure to do so routinely I think is by far the biggest contributor to groundings that occur as a result of meandering or being set out of the channel...

What's really spooky, is that many planing powerboats running the Ditch are closing on sailboats they are overtaking at speeds that are not all that much different from many merchant vessels on the open ocean...

:-)
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Old 21-06-2015, 18:19   #83
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

My wife doesn't let me steer
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Old 21-06-2015, 18:25   #84
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
Perhaps you'd feel less threatened if I began every post with the qualifier "In my opinion...?"
I dont feel threatened.

You write as if it is absolute law and frankly, that is not the case.

When I was doing my Yachtmasters theory in the 80s, my teacher was a boring fart. He did know his stuff though. His take on regulations was that specifics in narrow spaces and rules of traffic lanes and crossings were to be learned off by heart. Flags and buoys too. The rest should be adhered to as best as possible and ONLY in the event of a mishap, would ever come into play in an enquiry.

He endeared himself to me when he and other students came out on my boat for a day and promoted common sense as the rule of the sea. He gave practical advice and demonstrated how to use RADAR properly, how read a chart and keep a watch, how to calculate time and how to prepare to dip below for a body function in the shortest time ONLY after doing a scan and RADAR check and setting alarms. He was ex Navy and merchant navy and had been a sailing sailor for 30 years as well. (He repositioned my boom for me and showed me how to tension it slightly differently and I gained a better shape and 1 knot extra over the distance) He also was of the 'Frap it' school of sailing and whizzed in the cockpit if sailing alone. He told us stories that made my sides ache.

So. Bottom line is safety. For those of us who single hand, I bet our alarms are set keener and finer and smarter and we dont take risks in traffic areas. I bet I will wake up if the wind changes or I hear something I havent heard before.

Now Im not in the boatsman61 or MarkJ class of offshore. I coastal overnight or perhaps two days straight so my sleep pattern is shorter, 30 mins, but in accordance with the conditions and environment and equipment onboard. Thats the way it is. I often sleep in the cockpit and one eye/ear is listening. 6 years of med school training will do that.

I will need to talk with MarkJ and Boatie regarding their routine, but will do so in less charged atmosphere and with the respect due.

Do you know how hard it is to get a nubile boat companion who is a keen yottie with experience in sailing? I would never sail alone ever again......
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Old 21-06-2015, 18:27   #85
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

One other important thing relating to "lookout" and the Rules is the action to be taken.... When vessels are NOT in sight of one another....

Is this worth rehashing? ..:what:
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Old 21-06-2015, 18:28   #86
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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My wife doesn't let me steer
That's my goal too and I'd be surprised in a couple more years if that's not the case. I know I can wrestle with an anchor or pull in a furling line in strong winds or reach up over the bimini to put on the mainsail cover better than she can, so it makes sense to me for her to do most of the driving and me to do most of the work on deck.
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Old 21-06-2015, 18:33   #87
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale




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Old 21-06-2015, 18:39   #88
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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That is the worst and most problems with you husband and wife sailor's you never let you wife steer the boat and assist her (not yell at her) at operating the boat! You all think your hot crap, and don't think she can handle steering a boat! Well you stupid idiots if she can drive a car she sure can steer a boat! Dud! If some thing happens to you it would be nice that she could bring the boat back to the slip! She should know how to handle the boat just like you can, she would probably enjoy it far better than you know. Your suppose to be a team! Surrender to you ego's!
In the long version of the report, it says the wife was mobility impaired...meaning she was not able to move about the boat, or help in any way due to a physical condition.

While I agree with your sentiment that every couple is a team, thats not the case in this instance. If anything, IMHO, the husband should be commended for his efforts to include her in sailing, despite her physical limitations. And this poor man has now lost his wife. No time to be finger pointing.
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Old 21-06-2015, 18:42   #89
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale


No sailboat involved.
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Old 21-06-2015, 18:50   #90
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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My wife doesn't let me steer
Good on you! She know the in's an out's about handling the boat! Very true that it can be much safer when you both work together! You are number one in my book!
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