Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-06-2015, 18:40   #256
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
A long time ago, both Jim & I became unable to stand watch, 3 days out of New Zealand, due to illness.

Did not have an anchor ball at that time. But we did have the anchor light. No one kept watch at all for over 24 hours, too weak to make it up the companionway.

Regardless of what is specified in the regulations, we thought the all round white would keep us safe. Perhaps it did! No one came to investigate. In daylight as someone approached the boat, it would have been obvious she was hove to.

It would seem to me that if the other guy sees an anchor ball or light, he/she will know to avoid you.

Ann
Ann's responses are the best.

No ego, always first hand experience.

Always practical.




Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2015, 20:11   #257
Registered User
 
Viking Sailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: Fantasia 35 - s/v Feeling Good
Posts: 1,074
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Whether the crew of a cruising sailboat at sea is doing rule-5 stuff or not, there main safety goal is to alert merchant ships that they are approaching a stand-on vessel. This can be accomplished by displaying lights, using AIS, or calling on VHF radio. Meaningful lights to be displayed at the masthead would be a tri-color when in a high traffic area, and an extra bright anchor light at sea.

I would avoid using NUC lights unless I was truly unable to immediately, and for some time into the future, change the boat's direction or speed.
__________________

__________________
Viking Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2015, 20:22   #258
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Hmm but wouldn't an anchor light be confused for a steaming light when deck mounted navigation lights are displayed...
__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2015, 23:15   #259
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

The anchor light comment was meant tongue in cheek. I believe the NUC would be most applicable to the situation, and if someone is equipped with a radar or even better an ARPA radar, it would only take 2 to 3 min. to determine that the target is stationary, and the other vessel can move around you. If you had deck lights on then it would help the people observing you to determine at least the type of vessel and it wouldn't be hard to determine there was no one on the wheel. Unless you have a pilot house like me
__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 01:29   #260
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,939
Images: 1
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
USCG defines "underway" anytime you are not anchored or tied to the dock. Even if you are drifting, you are considered "underway not making way".
I guess we are saying the same thing. As soon as you are not attached to land in any way - you are considered to be obligated under the Sailing adn STeering rules (unless you show a NUC signal)
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 01:33   #261
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,455
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Seems to me that at sea a mast head all around light, ie anchor light, with no other lights displayed would appear to any approaching vessel as overtaking from astern. This would make the approaching vessel the give way vessel, and he would keep clear. This would not be following the letter of the rule, but would inconvenience him little and avoid a collision... which is the aim of the rules. And this is the method used frequently by the Hiscocks, ie hoist a Tilley lamp under the boom and go to sleep.

Yes, this claims for you a "right" that you don't really deserve, but what the hell does that matter at sea with unlimited room to maneuver ? As they say, "no harm, no foul"...

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 01:42   #262
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,954
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Seems to me that at sea a mast head all around light, ie anchor light, with no other lights displayed would appear to any approaching vessel as overtaking from astern. This would make the approaching vessel the give way vessel, and he would keep clear. This would not be following the letter of the rule, but would inconvenience him little and avoid a collision... which is the aim of the rules. And this is the method used frequently by the Hiscocks, ie hoist a Tilley lamp under the boom and go to sleep.

Yes, this claims for you a "right" that you don't really deserve, but what the hell does that matter at sea with unlimited room to maneuver ? As they say, "no harm, no foul"...

Jim
Thats what I have been trying to say.... even show steaming light and stern light....ships avoid white lights that aren't moving....or aren't moving very fast. I can't think of a single situation where upon seeing a white light a big ship navigator would expect the white light to get out of his way.

I thought it was summer in the north ( edited to add... it certainly isn't summer here in Auckland,,,,brrrr)? Shouldn't all these armchair navigators be out sailing?

Ping, up to his armpits in work and hoping to get the heater working tomorrow
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 02:30   #263
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,137
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Ultimately, is is not what it is all about: to be situationally aware and avoid the risk of collision?

Before I set off to drive to work this morning, I checked the weather and the traffic report. 3 roads down on my normal route. I planned a different route, listened to the GPS and traffic all the way, and changed that route according to circumstances.

Same in a vessel. More or less, except for the cafe I passed with the hot waitress standing in the window...........

Actually got to the clinic earlier.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 02:47   #264
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,954
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Ultimately,(th)is is not what it is all about: to be situationally aware and avoid the risk of collision?

Before I set off to drive to work this morning, I checked the weather and the traffic report. 3 roads down on my normal route. I planned a different route, listened to the GPS and traffic all the way, and changed that route according to circumstances.

Same in a vessel. More or less, except for the cafe I passed with the hot waitress standing in the window...........

Actually got to the clinic earlier.
Yep , that was the original point of the thread but it sems to have drifted away off and over the horizon.

So, its 02dark and its blowing 50 bags with sleet from the direction that you want to go in, temp down to about 5*C before windchill, you haven't seen another ship in a week, you are wet, you are shivering and going a bit hypothermic. Do you go below and have a chat with the cook ( bit more heavy duty than me but also in need of sleep..) about the finer points of the colregs?
No... you put on some nice bright white lights, drop the sails, lash the helm amidships and go below to fill your hot water bottle and make a nice hot cup of cocoa. That is the reality.... slept well... saw a few hot chicks in shop windows....

Listened to the GPS? Met a bloke who said he would talk to ships on the VHS.... I presume he lifted the flap thingo and talked into the hole.

Back to the OP... I don't like that BG dodger on the yacht that sunk.... just something else compromising your good lookout.
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 03:30   #265
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,137
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Yep, that was the original point of the thread but it seems to have drifted away off and over the horizon.

So, its 02dark and its blowing 50 bags with sleet from the direction that you want to go in, temp down to about 5*C before windchill, you haven't seen another ship in a week, you are wet, you are shivering and going a bit hypothermic. Do you go below and have a chat with the cook ( bit more heavy duty than me but also in need of sleep..) about the finer points of the colregs?
No... you put on some nice bright white lights, drop the sails, lash the helm amidships and go below to fill your hot water bottle and make a nice hot cup of cocoa. That is the reality.... slept well... saw a few hot chicks in shop windows....

Listened to the GPS? Met a bloke who said he would talk to ships on the VHS.... I presume he lifted the flap thingo and talked into the hole.

Back to the OP... I don't like that BG dodger on the yacht that sunk.... just something else compromising your good lookout.
Drifting is good...... just make others aware of it

Ultimately we are all trying to do the same thing. Know whats going on and avoid holes in the boat. We have a regulation that covers this. For whatever reason, (probably religious) Some people slavishly adhere to the absolutes, and yet the first time they break that in going below without a watch even for a couple of minutes, they have diminished and proved false to their understanding of it.

The colregs was penned by MEN. Men just like you and I. That leaves it open to their prejudices. attitudes and fears. I have studied the colregs. You have studied the colregs. Sometimes we come to different conclusions depending on our prejudices attitudes and fears.

To this end, colreg5 has been penned to emphasise the importance of using sight and hearing at all times in keeping a good lookout. It then hands the responsibility to the Master of the ship to implement it.

If the trip is completed with no incidents, then the regulation is deemed to have been observed. If a serious incident occurs, then a court of law will view it through the filter of ALL the colregs, and determine or apportion blame if required.

Some have said that the colregs will need to altered if crewless vessels start plying the oceans. They do not. Colreg5 applies only to humans. (And even this will be argued by purists..... ) As long as the vessel observes: by using all means available, the situational awareness and the ability to put the correct flags and lights in any given situation, it will be argued that they are safe.

I recently watched a video on a young girls round the world solo trip where the vessel was so full of electronics that when she went to sleep, a whole remote monitoring station was watching for her. Satellites, sonar, RADAR, GPS, AIS etc....... she was monitored electronically and by live people at all times..... How does that fit in with your concept of colreg 5?

Well, our solo sailors generally get where they are going and with no mishaps. Personally, Id love to share my vessel with a happy and knowledgable female sailor as would our solo sailors generally, but given the absence, we sail alone and enjoy it!!

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 03:47   #266
Registered User
 
Viking Sailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: Fantasia 35 - s/v Feeling Good
Posts: 1,074
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

The only unbreakable COLREGS rule is: Don't cause the loss of life or property.

You can break any other COLREGS rules as long as you can show that your actions were necessary to avoid the loss of life or property. In fact you are required to take whatever actions are necessary to avoid the loss of life or property.

Thus, if showing only an all around white light from the masthead improves the chances that a ships OOW will deduce that he is approaching a stand-on vessel then that is a good thing.
__________________
Viking Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 06:02   #267
Eternal Member

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 848
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Thats what I have been trying to say.... even show steaming light and stern light....ships avoid white lights that aren't moving....or aren't moving very fast. I can't think of a single situation where upon seeing a white light a big ship navigator would expect the white light to get out of his way.

I thought it was summer in the north ( edited to add... it certainly isn't summer here in Auckland,,,,brrrr)? Shouldn't all these armchair navigators be out sailing?

Ping, up to his armpits in work and hoping to get the heater working tomorrow
Well, if nothing else, there is certainly one thing I have come to appreciate from this and the other recent threads on solo sailing and watchkeeping...

Despite having done a fair bit of singlehanding over the years, I never had any idea it could be so damn COMPLICATED...

;-))


__________________
Jon Eisberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 06:08   #268
Eternal Member

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 848
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post

Back to the OP... I don't like that BG dodger on the yacht that sunk.... just something else compromising your good lookout.
Absolutely... Consistently, that is probably my biggest gripe about most of the boats I run these days... The extent to which some of these dodgers, biminis, and enclosures are impairing all-around visibility from the cockpit or helm can be astonishing...

"Suitable for motoring down the ICW during Daylight Hours ONLY..."

;-)
__________________
Jon Eisberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 08:35   #269
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,242
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I disagree -- if you sail the wrong way up a TSS, you are violating the COLREGS flagrantly, even if there is no traffic and not even any traffic.
You pointed out yourself that nobody every got fined just for not maintaining a good lookout. The case of the French sailor being fined for violating the TSS is clearly a case of him being fined for "impeding" other vessels, not just for going up a TSS The wrong way.

Quote:
Concerning autonomous vessels -- I think they are in violation. The COLREGS did not contemplate autonomous vessels and maybe should be amended.
I do see reports of autonomous vessel, some being developed on behalf of the government, being found "in compliance" with the COLREGS.

To me it does appear that the states enforcing the COLREGS seem to operate on the theory that there is no punishable offence if you don't cause any collisions or impediments.
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2015, 11:59   #270
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
You pointed out yourself that nobody every got fined just for not maintaining a good lookout. The case of the French sailor being fined for violating the TSS is clearly a case of him being fined for "impeding" other vessels, not just for going up a TSS The wrong way.



I do see reports of autonomous vessel, some being developed on behalf of the government, being found "in compliance" with the COLREGS.

To me it does appear that the states enforcing the COLREGS seem to operate on the theory that there is no punishable offence if you don't cause any collisions or impediments.
It is often true that COLREGS offences are not pursued unless there is an accident, but it is simplistic and wrong to make a principle out of that and assume that no one ever cares.

TSS violations are prosecuted quite often without any impeding at all -- the Germans do it almost daily in the German Bight. If you sail up the Dover Straits TSS the wrong way, you will be in a heap of trouble without regard to other traffic, at least, if you fail to get out of it immediately after being warned over the VHF.

A flagrant violation, or one you are accidentally caught in, might get you a fine. I have not heard of jail time, but there's no reason why you might not get it in a really bad case.


That being said, I don't think that it is very likely that you will ever get in trouble for violations of COLREGS in a good faith attempt to be more safe.

Showing NUC because of necessity to sleep, or showing an anchor ball or anchor light, is against the letter of the Rules, but I can't imagine anyone would even say a single word against it, as what you are doing is a good faith attempt to increase safety. Rule 2 even allows departures from the other Rules in such cases.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rope

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: Catamaran: Cautionary Tale for Wannabe Cruisers Jane.Joy Classifieds Archive 118 08-10-2013 10:59
A Cautionary Tale Jolly Roger General Sailing Forum 26 25-04-2013 19:53
A cautionary tale: Or trip report of Bellingham to Astoria. s/v Beth The Sailor's Confessional 3 06-06-2012 16:21
A Cautionary Tale Godwits Meets & Greets 21 06-12-2010 10:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.