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Old 25-06-2015, 12:46   #241
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by Viking Sailor View Post
From the bridge of a large ship at sea a single white light at the masthead indicates that the ship is overtaking a sailboat. Hint, Hint...
Yeah, probably a bad plan . . . .

If hove to at night, I'm more inclined towards illuminating the decks and maybe putting a spotlight on the sail if I'm worried about it. Among other things, such lights don't conflict with other Colreg-specified lights. Better yet might be to heave-to and sleep during the day, of course. Then maybe DH's suggested day shapes for NUC make more sense as there are no alternatives. Speaking of day shapes, not only do you never see sailboats using the round ball at anchor, but also never see the upside down triangle (conical shape with apex pointing down) when motoring. I have both onboard but have admittedly rarely used myself. No excuses, and easy enough to comply with too.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:49   #242
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
At the moment there is a debate whether autonomous vehicles can be COLREGS compliant.
Might resolve the never-ending Rule 5 debate once & for all.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:53   #243
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I understand your perspective, but NUC specifically requires an "exceptional circumstance" which clearly doesn't exist in this case. In the link from my previous post, the ship was drifting (not navigating) while displaying NUC signals and it is that practice being criticized. I guess that either way, you're not following the letter of the law, but to me, falsely claiming an undeserved right of way privilege (NUC) is more wrong than falsely claiming that you're navigating, pick your poison.
I look at this strictly from the point of view of a professional mariner who would appreciate knowing in advance that a yacht hove to even in benign weather far away from approaches..... Is OK and does not need help.....Showing NUC tells me the guy is either asleep or busy fixing something and does not need my help or the distraction of a close CPA.
Eminently practical from the real world of offshore seamanship... which is why I suggested it for solo sailors who are not into a racing mindset (which is definitely unseamanlike) :thumbdown:
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Old 25-06-2015, 13:22   #244
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Hmph!! I was born old.

I'm not sure if you know that most shakers and movers and world leaders only sleep for less than 5 hours a day. Margaret Thatcher being one. I don't subscribe to the 7 hours or more as being "necessary" for everyone. Older folk don't need as much sleep or don't get it. Spanish people do the poly whatsit sleep thing and take a 1 or 2-hour sleep in the afternoon, go to bed at 1 or 2 am and back at it at 6 or7 am.

Your international travel crossed time zones. That is not the same as just elongated waking hours.

General David Petraeus ate one meal a day and slept only four hours a night,

There's no correct amount of sleep, says Prof Kevin Morgan, of Loughborough University's sleep research centre. The only rule is to sleep long enough to feel refreshed when you wake up.

Soldiers high on adrenalin can function on little sleep: It all depends on if one gets a buzz out of what one's doing. If you're despondent, you tend to sleep more; if you're excited you need less. Margaret Thatcher was someone who felt on top of things.

So everyone is different. I wake refreshed and function normally. Occasionally when not under obligation, I might go to bed at 3 am- wake at 7am, go do a few things, put on a movie and sleep through it.

Whilst on vacation, I have been known to sleep in the afternoon for an hour......but then I go to Spain and I feel part of the whole scene.
I don't think 7 hours is necessary for everyone either, we're all different in that way. But there IS a minimum amount of sleep required for good health and longevity, and in the short term, maximum alertness, and that minimum amount is more than 2 or 3 hours a night for just about everyone who's not a vampire. As you say, being excited or old can make a difference, but you can't go through your whole life being excited and living on adrenaline all the time. I realize there are many ways to get the sleep YOUR body and mind needs, and different customs are dominant in different cultures, but we all DO need to get adequate sleep.
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Old 25-06-2015, 13:31   #245
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I look at this strictly from the point of view of a professional mariner who would appreciate knowing in advance that a yacht hove to even in benign weather far away from approaches..... Is OK and does not need help.....Showing NUC tells me the guy is either asleep or busy fixing something and does not need my help or the distraction of a close CPA.
Eminently practical from the real world of offshore seamanship... which is why I suggested it for solo sailors who are not into a racing mindset (which is definitely unseamanlike) :thumbdown:
NUC might mean a sleeping sailor to you but that's not how the colregs define it and instead it means the vessel is experiencing some "exceptional circumstance" such as engine failure or steering failure that prevents the crew from being in control of their vessel. It also gives the NUC vessel right of way priority over vessels that are not experiencing any "exceptional circumstances."
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Old 25-06-2015, 13:36   #246
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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They could say it if you're out in the open ocean!

Your comment takes me back to an earlier thought I had about burning the anchor light at night if I was hove to. Like NUC, it's also not authorized, but an all-around white light is known to be more visible at greater distances. Yes, definitely more potential confusion than NUC, but at least confusion implies you've been spotted! We are assuming open ocean here.

I probably wouldn't do either, frankly. If hove to at night and was worried about shipping, I'd probably keep my running lights or tricolor on since I'm underway (not making way), and just turn my deck lights on per the eariler suggestion.
Offshore I'd really not expect any lights to be seen, if so then a bonus. BIG radar return is more likely to be of benefit, from watching ais mid ocean most ships seem to do their collision avoidance a long way off, like before you can see them. If you have a steel boat with a big radar reflection anyway.
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Old 25-06-2015, 15:08   #247
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
NUC might mean a sleeping sailor to you but that's not how the colregs define it and instead it means the vessel is experiencing some "exceptional circumstance" such as engine failure or steering failure that prevents the crew from being in control of their vessel. It also gives the NUC vessel right of way priority over vessels that are not experiencing any "exceptional circumstances."
Given Pelagic's professional background, I suspect he's aware how the Rules define NUC. Besides, I thought the point you just made had already been acknowledged if not conceded, and the discussion was now focused on the practical pros/cons of using NUC to make a sleeping singlehanded sailor more visible to shipping.
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Old 25-06-2015, 15:14   #248
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
NUC might mean a sleeping sailor to you but that's not how the colregs define it and instead it means the vessel is experiencing some "exceptional circumstance" such as engine failure or steering failure that prevents the crew from being in control of their vessel. It also gives the NUC vessel right of way priority over vessels that are not experiencing any "exceptional circumstances."
You are missing the point...

Dockhead and I are recommending this signal be used with discretion for a solo sailor hove to....ie drifting....and sleeping!... so they in fact cannot be in control of their vessel for very human reasons .

I would not hesitate to do this... If I was unable to keep a lookout and was just drifting.

Right of way does not come into the equation.... Because they are NOT making way
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Old 25-06-2015, 15:59   #249
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Basically you could say that as long as you manage to avoid a collision, or impeding a vessel you shouldn't impede you are in compliance with the COLREGS.

At the moment there is a debate whether autonomous vehicles can be COLREGS compliant. So what about an autonomous vehicle with a sleeping sailor on board?
I disagree -- if you sail the wrong way up a TSS, you are violating the COLREGS flagrantly, even if there is no traffic and not even any traffic.


Concerning autonomous vessels -- I think they are in violation. The COLREGS did not contemplate autonomous vessels and maybe should be amended.

I would be in favor of amending the COLREGS to specifically allow single handers to display NUC and heave to. I think it's completely reasonable and fully in the spirit of the Rules.
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Old 25-06-2015, 16:03   #250
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
NUC might mean a sleeping sailor to you but that's not how the colregs define it and instead it means the vessel is experiencing some "exceptional circumstance" such as engine failure or steering failure that prevents the crew from being in control of their vessel. It also gives the NUC vessel right of way priority over vessels that are not experiencing any "exceptional circumstances."
Not right of way. It means that the NUC vessel is just a passive obstacle which you have to steer around.

Provided you don't do it in restricted or crowded waters, it's not really an imposition at all on other vessels since it's clear that the vessel claiming NUC will not maneuver.
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Old 25-06-2015, 16:13   #251
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

A long time ago, both Jim & I became unable to stand watch, 3 days out of New Zealand, due to illness.

Did not have an anchor ball at that time. But we did have the anchor light. No one kept watch at all for over 24 hours, too weak to make it up the companionway.

Regardless of what is specified in the regulations, we thought the all round white would keep us safe. Perhaps it did! No one came to investigate. In daylight as someone approached the boat, it would have been obvious she was hove to.

It would seem to me that if the other guy sees an anchor ball or light, he/she will know to avoid you.

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Old 25-06-2015, 16:13   #252
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

If hove to or lying ahull I would simply show white lights .... they are very visible, far more so than red... whatever they are mistaken for, small ship at anchor, stern light, small fishing boat,.... it will be avoided...

Still sailing? NUC if you must but if you do you should still be showing running lights at deck level. However your two reds will be obscured from many directions.
If someone does see your two reds and your port sidelight they will give you a very wide berth........
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Old 25-06-2015, 16:18   #253
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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, but you can't go through your whole life being excited and living on adrenaline all the time.
Who cant? I will introduce you to an ex-wife..... she will do just that. If you can survive her craziness you will find that it was best to never go to sleep at all for fear..........

"There is an individual minimum amount of sleep required." I hate statistics with a passion because the averages exclude those that need more or less. As a physician, I deal with individuals, never mind what the books says. If my patient exhibits certain tendencies or preferences then I cater for that. I don't care that 56% respond well to a certain form of treatment, I want 100% of my patients to respond and get better and the treatment is geared towards them individually.

Back to boats. Enough sleep per person is the ideal. I do it my way and it works for me. It might not work for others. Each person has to find a method of getting enough sleep and keeping the ethos of a good warning system to wake them if a danger of collision exists.

That is why discussions like this are good. from the zealously inclined to slavishly follow a wording, to the more relaxed person following the spirit of intent. Somewhere in all this a good procedural method.

I hope.

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Old 25-06-2015, 16:24   #254
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
NUC might mean a sleeping sailor to you but that's not how the colregs define it and instead it means the vessel is experiencing some "exceptional circumstance" such as engine failure or steering failure that prevents the crew from being in control of their vessel. It also gives the NUC vessel right of way priority over vessels that are not experiencing any "exceptional circumstances."
ColRegs do NOT define is as "... such as engine failure or steering failure....". That is your interpretation of "exceptional circumstance". It is just as valid to define it as "crew incapacitated by illness/injury or tiredness that prevents the crew from being in control of their vessel".

As for "gives the NUC vessel right of way priority" - you are correct. it does and it should. Good luck with standing on and expecting a vessel which has no crew on watch to get out of your way.
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Old 25-06-2015, 16:27   #255
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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I would be in favor of amending the COLREGS to specifically allow single handers to display NUC and heave to. I think it's completely reasonable and fully in the spirit of the Rules.
Depending on how Rule 5 is interpreted, the Colregs might first have to be amended to allow singlehanders!
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