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Old 25-06-2015, 08:39   #226
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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. . .
While it may not exactly comply with the "letter of the law," this seems to me like a responsible approach that would allow short/singlehanded sailors to make good progress towards their destination for the vast majority of hours in a day and still be as safe as possible while no-one is standing watch. Singlehanded racers wouldn't like it but if everyone in the race were required to be making less than say 2 knots (hove to or ahull) for a certain amount of time each day, and it was electronically monitored to avoid cheating, it wouldn't interfere with the competitiveness of the event while increasing safety to both the racer and any other mariners with whom they might cross paths.
And by the way, I don't think it is unseamanlike per se to continue to make way while sleeping. In good weather and visibility, open ocean, far from traffic lanes, good alarms set -- I don't think this is so bad, and might do it myself. All I'm saying is that relative to hove to and NUC, it is a relatively bigger violation, and relatively riskier.
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Old 25-06-2015, 09:02   #227
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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I agree in broad terms. There will be the the odd exception I imagine like the drunk boat driver or the 5 year old child at the helm of the other boat who makes it impossible to avoid.

I can't think of any other law where you are found guilty only if caught red handed.
Actually it applies to most laws. If you aren't caught red handed, they won't bother with you.

The obvious example is following too closely. The vast majority of tickets handed out for following too closely are the result of rear-ending another car. The fact you hit the car is proof (ie: red handed) that you were too close. If you miss the car by inches, it's very subjective, so the officer usually looks the other way.

Same thing with the watch being asleep. If you get away with it, odds are no one is around to report you or issue a ticket. If you hit something and there is an inquiry, you clearly weren't keeping a proper watch.

The fact that they aren't chasing single handers down or outlawing organized races is in no way proof that it's legal just that they don't have the red handed person and it's more hassle than it's worth to fight it. Same as they don't pull over and ticket every speeder on the road. Per the law they could do it but it's just not practical. Reality is police authorities apply laws subjectively and the higher ups directing the action are often political animals who have no interest in messing with big dollar sponsors of these events.

Bottom line, there is no way to torture the language to claim that you are standing watch while asleep. It may or may not be safe but you are in violation of the colregs.
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Old 25-06-2015, 09:03   #228
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Since Rule 5 requires the watch stander to be able to hear, does that mean it is "illegal" for a deaf person to operate a vessel?

Later,
Dan
Per the letter of the law...yes.

At least in the USA, no one will do anything about it because of the ADA rules that conflict with the colregs.

Should a blind person be allowed to drive a car because prohibiting it might hurt thier feelings?
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Old 25-06-2015, 09:14   #229
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Or you could heave to and display one black ball, while it does indicate you are anchored, no one says your anchor couldn't be dragging.
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Old 25-06-2015, 09:20   #230
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Per the letter of the law...yes.

At least in the USA, no one will do anything about it because of the ADA rules that conflict with the colregs.

Should a blind person be allowed to drive a car because prohibiting it might hurt thier feelings?
That is my thought as well.

A deaf person can operate car fairly safely. A blind person cannot operate a car safely.

Later,
Dan
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Old 25-06-2015, 09:23   #231
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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, but when I run into one of them after not seeing them for awhile, I'm always struck by how much they've aged since the last time I saw them compared with other people over a similar time period.
Hmph!! I was born old.

I'm not sure if you know that most shakers and movers and world leaders only sleep for less than 5 hours a day. Margaret Thatcher being one. I don't subscribe to the 7 hours or more as being "necessary" for everyone. Older folk don't need as much sleep or don't get it. Spanish people do the poly whatsit sleep thing and take a 1 or 2-hour sleep in the afternoon, go to bed at 1 or 2 am and back at it at 6 or7 am.

Your international travel crossed time zones. That is not the same as just elongated waking hours.

General David Petraeus ate one meal a day and slept only four hours a night,

There's no correct amount of sleep, says Prof Kevin Morgan, of Loughborough University's sleep research centre. The only rule is to sleep long enough to feel refreshed when you wake up.

Soldiers high on adrenalin can function on little sleep: It all depends on if one gets a buzz out of what one's doing. If you're despondent, you tend to sleep more; if you're excited you need less. Margaret Thatcher was someone who felt on top of things.

So everyone is different. I wake refreshed and function normally. Occasionally when not under obligation, I might go to bed at 3 am- wake at 7am, go do a few things, put on a movie and sleep through it.

Whilst on vacation, I have been known to sleep in the afternoon for an hour......but then I go to Spain and I feel part of the whole scene.
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Old 25-06-2015, 09:47   #232
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Or you could heave to and display one black ball, while it does indicate you are anchored, no one says your anchor couldn't be dragging.
Oh man, its been a long week. Had a guy in here who got caught playing away from home. His wife set about him with boots and heavy implements. After the hospital X-rays and stuff, I got the job of follow up as he is a patient here.

"........heave to and display one black ball.." had a complete different mental image that what was meant to be portrayed by capt58..........

PS- the kid with peanuts had only 'a' peanut.. and it came out with a pipe suction pretty easily...... a wipe round removing the salt and a free ice cream made him a happy camper.
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Old 25-06-2015, 09:51   #233
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Too bad they haven't invented the anti-Viagra, to help wives keep their dogs on the porch. OUCH! That is a vivid mental image.
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Old 25-06-2015, 10:08   #234
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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We’re talking about two different COLREGS violations – (1) claiming NUC without an entirely valid justification, or (2) showing navigation lights when you’re not actually navigating – not keeping a watch and therefore unprepared to do the part of collision avoidance required of a vessel under way.

In my opinion, of these two variants, the unjustified NUC signal is better. Because the NUC signal conveys correct information to other mariners – that there’s no one at the switch, so all collision avoidance is the responsibility of the other mariner. The normal nav lights convey false information – that you are on deck and aware and ready to do your part of collision avoidance.

The “sin” of showing NUC without proper justification is that you are refusing to perform your duties, and you are putting them onto the other mariner. But if you do this far from traffic areas, I don’t think this is really heinous. I can’t imagine that anyone would mind running across a hove-to boat with a single hander asleep in it – just steer around. No confusion about what you need to do, and I don’t know of any mariners who would resent the slight extra effort involved. But no doubt it's a sin -- as the cited article points out.

Showing false nav lights, on the other hand, is dangerous – because they imply that you are under way and fulfilling your obligations, when you are not. Still maybe not a problem if the other mariner is alert, but why increase the risks, by broadcasting false information?
I understand your perspective, but NUC specifically requires an "exceptional circumstance" which clearly doesn't exist in this case. In the link from my previous post, the ship was drifting (not navigating) while displaying NUC signals and it is that practice being criticized. I guess that either way, you're not following the letter of the law, but to me, falsely claiming an undeserved right of way privilege (NUC) is more wrong than falsely claiming that you're navigating, pick your poison.
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Old 25-06-2015, 10:15   #235
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Seems like what is missing is a dayshape for napping while underway and of course the navigation light display. I guess the powers that be didn't anticipate someone needing to sleep now and then, colregs were certainly not written with the single hander in mind.
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Old 25-06-2015, 10:22   #236
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Or you could heave to and display one black ball, while it does indicate you are anchored, no one says your anchor couldn't be dragging.
They could say it if you're out in the open ocean!

Your comment takes me back to an earlier thought I had about burning the anchor light at night if I was hove to. Like NUC, it's also not authorized, but an all-around white light is known to be more visible at greater distances. Yes, definitely more potential confusion than NUC, but at least confusion implies you've been spotted! We are assuming open ocean here.

I probably wouldn't do either, frankly. If hove to at night and was worried about shipping, I'd probably keep my running lights or tricolor on since I'm underway (not making way), and just turn my deck lights on per the eariler suggestion.
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Old 25-06-2015, 10:35   #237
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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I understand your perspective, but NUC specifically requires an "exceptional circumstance" which clearly doesn't exist in this case. In the link from my previous post, the ship was drifting (not navigating) while displaying NUC signals and it is that practice being criticized. I guess that either way, you're not following the letter of the law, but to me, falsely claiming an undeserved right of way privilege (NUC) is more wrong than falsely claiming that you're navigating, pick your poison.
I'm not sure I agree with DH's idea of running NUC lights or shapes either, but it is an idea with safety, pragmatism, and collision avoidance in mind. When it comes to avoiding potentially deadly collisions on the high seas, what may be "more wrong" or the "letter of the law" often misses the point. The Rules aren't there for the sake of the Rules, but rather to promote uniformity, predictability, pragmatism, and common sense. The goal here is avoiding collisions and the attendant damage that can cause to life & property, not myopic adherence to a set of rules & regs which are purposely written to promote flexibility and individual judgment in their execution.
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Old 25-06-2015, 11:11   #238
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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I'm not sure I agree with DH's idea of running NUC lights or shapes either, but it is an idea with safety, pragmatism, and collision avoidance in mind. When it comes to avoiding potentially deadly collisions on the high seas, what may be "more wrong" or the "letter of the law" often misses the point. The Rules aren't there for the sake of the Rules, but rather to promote uniformity, predictability, pragmatism, and common sense. The goal here is avoiding collisions and the attendant damage that can cause to life & property, not myopic adherence to a set of rules & regs which are purposely written to promote flexibility and individual judgment in their execution.
On the open ocean there's no law unless something happens that needs settling in a land locked court..
IMHO set NUC while hove to and sleeping, red white red while at sea-anchor or droque all the time.
Another thought, standard navigation lights especially for boats less than 12m are close to nothing. Whatever lights you are burning, better to have something a bit brighter..
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Old 25-06-2015, 11:26   #239
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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On the open ocean there's no law unless something happens that needs settling in a land locked court..
Basically you could say that as long as you manage to avoid a collision, or impeding a vessel you shouldn't impede you are in compliance with the COLREGS.

At the moment there is a debate whether autonomous vehicles can be COLREGS compliant. So what about an autonomous vehicle with a sleeping sailor on board?
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Old 25-06-2015, 11:47   #240
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

From the bridge of a large ship at sea a single white light at the masthead indicates that the ship is overtaking a sailboat. Hint, Hint...
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