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Old 25-06-2015, 02:19   #211
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

OR

Keep your wits# about you at all times. Observe and listen. Use all the tools at your disposal to know what is going on in your current circumstance that will enhance situational* awareness so as to determine and appraise what risk to the vessel exist including collision**.

With apologies to Shakespeare.

#Sound mental faculties
*Position or status with regard to conditions and circumstances.
**Hitting some big ass boat or a tree trunk or a reef or a dozy half submerged Whale.
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Old 25-06-2015, 04:57   #212
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

With regards to what rules apply and when. In Danish the term "let" is used. I would translate this to english as "aweigh" not necessarily "underway" (I know, I know - only a lawyer or sematic expert would make this distinction)

To me "underway" menas "making way" somehow, meaning the vessel is moving with some sort or propulsion, engine, sails, oars, paddles - whatever.

"Aweigh" means it is not attached to the ground by any means, anchor, mooring ball line to land etc.

So lying ahull (no propulsion) is "aweigh" not "underway"

Websters defines "underway as: occurring, performed, or used while traveling or in motion

Websters defines "aweigh" as: raised just clear of the bottom —used of an anchor


Which would seem to support my argument.


I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if anyone can define it better


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Old 25-06-2015, 05:19   #213
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

USCG defines "underway" anytime you are not anchored or tied to the dock. Even if you are drifting, you are considered "underway not making way".
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Old 25-06-2015, 05:25   #214
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

At 7:30 am this morning, I got in the car. Just about to start it when I hear a loud Cat miaow. I opened the window to see where it was and Jerry flung himself through the space. Now this is a cat who hates car travel. I usually have to put him a travel container and listen to him whining and smell his defecations all the way to the vets. I picked him up and took him back to the house. I got in the car again. Within seconds, I hear the same loud miaow.

I went in and got the cat basket, filled it with newspaper, put it on the rear seat and the little blighter jumped right in.

He is in the reception at the moment on Big Angie's knee convincing her that he loves her more than anyone in the whole world.

Shame he doesn't like the boat at all.
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Old 25-06-2015, 05:34   #215
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
USCG defines "underway" anytime you are not anchored or tied to the dock. Even if you are drifting, you are considered "underway not making way".
That's exactly correct.

And it's logical, because if you are not fixed in place, you are moving at least very slowly, and you are responsible for where you move. You are also responsible to get out of the way in some circumstances. You are presumed to have control, be able to start up an engine, raise a sail, or whatever. Therefore, you are also responsible for keeping a lookout.

That's the default position, and the exception to that is when you are unable to maneuver because your rudder is broken, engine is broken, or entire disabled, or whatever, and the NUC rule defines that case.

If you are drifting around somewhere, no one can tell at a glance whether you're just motoring slowly, and so other traffic has to be able to rely on your ability to do your part in the rules. Unless they see NUC signals, and then they deal with you differently.

By the way, all this same logic is exactly why it is important to use an anchor ball. If you're anchored but not showing the signal, other traffic is supposed to assume that you are maneuverable and will play your part. It is simple courtesy to other traffic, if not a question of your own safety, to leave no doubt about this, so why do so many sailors neglect to show an anchor ball? I'll never understand this. I've been on boats in the US which don't even have an anchor ball.

Two anchor balls make a dandy NUC signal, too
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Old 25-06-2015, 06:17   #216
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

I don't like the idea of displaying NUC for a NAP. Not only is taking nap not extraordinary circumstances, seeing a red masthead light and possibly no other light because they're obscured by the sea state, or seeing a red light with the white stern light below is more likely to be confused with seeing a vessel from the port side at sea. Confusing and clearly (to me) not the intention of the rule.
Anyway I guess there's two scenarios where the rules come into play. One being before a collision and one after. Before a collision, no harm, no foul..just a few confused sailors like me.
After a collision, trying to defend your actions in court. " yes sir I was making 7kn at 270 degrees when the ship ran me down, but I was asleep and displaying NUC lights..."
Good luck with that!
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Old 25-06-2015, 06:20   #217
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
I don't like the idea of displaying NUC for a NAP. Not only is taking nap not extraordinary circumstances, seeing a red masthead light and possibly no other light because they're obscured by the sea state, or seeing a red light with the white stern light below is more likely to be confused with seeing a vessel from the port side at sea. Confusing and clearly (to me) not the intention of the rule.
Anyway I guess there's two scenarios where the rules come into play. One being before a collision and one after. Before a collision, no harm, no foul..just a few confused sailors like me.
After a collision, trying to defend your actions in court. " yes sir I was making 7kn at 270 degrees when the ship ran me down, but I was asleep and displaying NUC lights..."
Good luck with that!
LOL......... Ive just been sat here for 15 seconds trying to figure out what the acronym NAP stood for.................
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Old 25-06-2015, 06:33   #218
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
I don't like the idea of displaying NUC for a NAP. Not only is taking nap not extraordinary circumstances, seeing a red masthead light and possibly no other light because they're obscured by the sea state, or seeing a red light with the white stern light below is more likely to be confused with seeing a vessel from the port side at sea. Confusing and clearly (to me) not the intention of the rule.
Anyway I guess there's two scenarios where the rules come into play. One being before a collision and one after. Before a collision, no harm, no foul..just a few confused sailors like me.
After a collision, trying to defend your actions in court. " yes sir I was making 7kn at 270 degrees when the ship ran me down, but I was asleep and displaying NUC lights..."
Good luck with that!
I don't think there is any question, that using NUC for NAP ( ) does not fulfill the requirements for NUC, if we read the Rules strictly.

But if you are single handed crossing an ocean, you have to sleep. So logically, what's the best way to do it?

1. Screw it; lot of empty ocean around here, I'm going for a kip and let the boat sail herself.
2. Cat nap with an egg timer, get up and scan the horizon periodically while the boat sails on.
3. Sleep with good radar guard zones, AIS alarms, depth alarms.
4. Heave to and display NUC.


I think that each of these is more seamanlike, less risky, and less violative of the Rules than the last. None of them is entirely compliant, but the last is much less so, and much less risky, than any of the others.

We're not going to ban single handing -- it is universally tolerated. So that just leaves the question of what's the most seamanlike and safest way to do it? I don't think the fact that we can't, strictly speaking, claim NUC status, means that we should instead do something less safe and less seamanlike, than claiming that status without the right. It is especially better in front of other mariners -- you are not making way, so less danger to them, and the NUC signal makes it clear to them what your status is. I think it is clearly superior.
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Old 25-06-2015, 06:36   #219
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

NUC = Not Under Command
NAP = Not Under Power
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Old 25-06-2015, 06:39   #220
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
You need to distinguish between short single handed trips and much longer ones. Myself its 24-40 hour max and I can manage very well on short 30 minutes sleep.

Longer transatlantic trips, I have no experience with as a single hander.

Anyone who knows me, even on this board will see me sign off at 4 or 5am and be at the clinic for 8am. I will often be awake till the following morning. Sleep deprivation as a med student ruined my ability to sleep for more than 4 hours at a stretch. That is over 30 some years of low hours of sleep. If Im working a 30 hour stint, I will take a 30 minute nap after 16 hours.

Thats the way it is.

Each person must assess their own abilities and capabilities and take the route that they can live with. I live with a cautious approach to life and am fully aware of the ability for it to change in a second. I think I was born on watch.........
I agree that there's a big difference in a one nighter versus a week or two straight of being sleep deprived and in this conversation I assumed we were talking about extended voyages such as 1000 miles or more or several days/nights at sea.

If you can actually keep your mental focus on that little sleep, then you must know that you have a very unusual ability. But as a MD, you must also know that doing that is terrible for your long term health. But then some MD's smoke too..... I flew internationally for 5 years and found the same thing, I got very good at living on a few hours sleep at a time but lost the ability to sleep for more than about 4 hours at a time. Eventually I got tired of waking up at 2AM on my days off so switched back to flying domestic trips and after a few months, once my sleep settled down so I could sleep through the night, I realized I felt better and more alert than I'd been during the whole 5 years of international flying. While flying internationally, I didn't realize how much better I could feel! Now I only fly an international trip occasionally when there's one my wife can come with me on. I know some people like you who seem to adapt to this sort of sleep pattern very well, but when I run into one of them after not seeing them for awhile, I'm always struck by how much they've aged since the last time I saw them compared with other people over a similar time period.
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Old 25-06-2015, 06:59   #221
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Possibly clearly superior DH but but.. Considering so many solo sailors are racing out there are they really going to almost comply with the rule by heaving to when sleeping? Or will they continue on at 20kn+ and just break the rule a little bit more.
Forgetting the rules for a minute, what is the best way to display your vessel type, course and speed at night mid ocean to other vessels when sailing?

1/ Deck mounted nav lights
2/ I Masthead tricolour
3/ Deck nav lights plus well lit deck
4/ NUC lights

I generally use 1,2 or 3 depending on the conditions. The deck nav lights are a bit brighter than the tricolour but the tricolour is probably more obvious in a swell. I think most mom and pop sailors and a high percentage of commercial seaman wouldn't have a clue what 4 means
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Old 25-06-2015, 07:52   #222
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I don't think there is any question, that using NUC for NAP ( ) does not fulfill the requirements for NUC, if we read the Rules strictly.

But if you are single handed crossing an ocean, you have to sleep. So logically, what's the best way to do it?

1. Screw it; lot of empty ocean around here, I'm going for a kip and let the boat sail herself.
2. Cat nap with an egg timer, get up and scan the horizon periodically while the boat sails on.
3. Sleep with good radar guard zones, AIS alarms, depth alarms.
4. Heave to and display NUC.


I think that each of these is more seamanlike, less risky, and less violative of the Rules than the last. None of them is entirely compliant, but the last is much less so, and much less risky, than any of the others.

We're not going to ban single handing -- it is universally tolerated. So that just leaves the question of what's the most seamanlike and safest way to do it? I don't think the fact that we can't, strictly speaking, claim NUC status, means that we should instead do something less safe and less seamanlike, than claiming that status without the right. It is especially better in front of other mariners -- you are not making way, so less danger to them, and the NUC signal makes it clear to them what your status is. I think it is clearly superior.
I think the list you have above is about right. While not technically complying with colreg 5, I think that heaving to or lying ahull and advertising that fact is the most responsible approach for singlehanders (and the rest of us) to take when we are unable to keep a proper watch so need some time off to catch up on sleep. While it's still possible for someone to run into you if they're not paying attention, there's no way you can accidentally T-bone anyone, and for those of us sailing in glass boats, it also reduces the risk of hitting a container or other flotsam.

I do have doubts about whether displaying NUC signals is proper or safer however and think that it might be better to continue to display underway nav lights as well as lighting up your deck with spreader lights or shining a light on your sail to make you as visible as possible. Despite the fact that you are not keeping watch and you aren't actively steering your vessel, no "exceptional circumstance" (required for NUC) exists and you are not stationary so are considered to be still underway so your lights should reflect that.
Displaying Untrue Not Under Command (NUC) Signal Would Not Release Vessel’s Liability To Comply With International Regulations For Preventing Collisions At Sea (COLREGS) - Transport - China


While it may not exactly comply with the "letter of the law," this seems to me like a responsible approach that would allow short/singlehanded sailors to make good progress towards their destination for the vast majority of hours in a day and still be as safe as possible while no-one is standing watch. Singlehanded racers wouldn't like it but if everyone in the race were required to be making less than say 2 knots (hove to or ahull) for a certain amount of time each day, and it was electronically monitored to avoid cheating, it wouldn't interfere with the competitiveness of the event while increasing safety to both the racer and any other mariners with whom they might cross paths.
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Old 25-06-2015, 08:10   #223
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Well I respect your comprehension of the rule and what it means. Single handed races comes into because people go to sleep.

So at the end of the day, I will do my best to keep a good watch and out of everyones way. ANd I know you will.

So this debate has legs. It can go on forever. I have a kid with peanuts stuck up his nose and the salt is burning him......... screaming the place down. Going for my forceps now.........

Later.
I found that comment extremely funny and almost spewed my coffee. The juxtaposition of the detailed interpretations/discussions of the COLREGs with the "picture" of you running, with forceps in hand, to help a screaming kid with a peanut up his nose was really funny.

Thanks for the laugh,
Dan
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Old 25-06-2015, 08:31   #224
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
RULE 5 Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
12
Since Rule 5 requires the watch stander to be able to hear, does that mean it is "illegal" for a deaf person to operate a vessel?

Later,
Dan
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Old 25-06-2015, 08:36   #225
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I think the list you have above is about right. While not technically complying with colreg 5, I think that heaving to or lying ahull and advertising that fact is the most responsible approach for singlehanders (and the rest of us) to take when we are unable to keep a proper watch so need some time off to catch up on sleep. While it's still possible for someone to run into you if they're not paying attention, there's no way you can accidentally T-bone anyone, and for those of us sailing in glass boats, it also reduces the risk of hitting a container or other flotsam.

I do have doubts about whether displaying NUC signals is proper or safer however and think that it might be better to continue to display underway nav lights as well as lighting up your deck with spreader lights or shining a light on your sail to make you as visible as possible. Despite the fact that you are not keeping watch and you aren't actively steering your vessel, no "exceptional circumstance" (required for NUC) exists and you are not stationary so are considered to be still underway so your lights should reflect that.
Displaying Untrue Not Under Command (NUC) Signal Would Not Release Vessel’s Liability To Comply With International Regulations For Preventing Collisions At Sea (COLREGS) - Transport - China


While it may not exactly comply with the "letter of the law," this seems to me like a responsible approach that would allow short/singlehanded sailors to make good progress towards their destination for the vast majority of hours in a day and still be as safe as possible while no-one is standing watch. Singlehanded racers wouldn't like it but if everyone in the race were required to be making less than say 2 knots (hove to or ahull) for a certain amount of time each day, and it was electronically monitored to avoid cheating, it wouldn't interfere with the competitiveness of the event while increasing safety to both the racer and any other mariners with whom they might cross paths.
We’re talking about two different COLREGS violations – (1) claiming NUC without an entirely valid justification, or (2) showing navigation lights when you’re not actually navigating – not keeping a watch and therefore unprepared to do the part of collision avoidance required of a vessel under way.

In my opinion, of these two variants, the unjustified NUC signal is better. Because the NUC signal conveys correct information to other mariners – that there’s no one at the switch, so all collision avoidance is the responsibility of the other mariner. The normal nav lights convey false information – that you are on deck and aware and ready to do your part of collision avoidance.

The “sin” of showing NUC without proper justification is that you are refusing to perform your duties, and you are putting them onto the other mariner. But if you do this far from traffic areas, I don’t think this is really heinous. I can’t imagine that anyone would mind running across a hove-to boat with a single hander asleep in it – just steer around. No confusion about what you need to do, and I don’t know of any mariners who would resent the slight extra effort involved. But no doubt it's a sin -- as the cited article points out.

Showing false nav lights, on the other hand, is dangerous – because they imply that you are under way and fulfilling your obligations, when you are not. Still maybe not a problem if the other mariner is alert, but why increase the risks, by broadcasting false information?
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