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Old 24-06-2015, 13:37   #196
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

However, and in my view, more importantly......

How can we convert all boaters to Multihulls?

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Old 24-06-2015, 13:41   #197
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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I think if you change the term ambiguous to vague.......... it works better. I dont believe it is ambiguous. I think it leaves the decision under a broader scope of avoiding a collision to the Master.
You may be right. By using "ambiguous," I was thinking of the defn. that it is language that is subject to two or more interpretations. This seems to be the crux of the debate over the wording of Rule 5, i.e. is the manual lookout (i) required at all times no matter what, or (ii) is it lumped together with other available means which may be utilized as appropriate under the circumstances & conditions.

Of course, beyond the semantics the terms "pragmatic & flexible" are really what counts!
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Old 24-06-2015, 13:43   #198
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

I took Jerry the Cat into the Office today, Kids day- 10 kids all round the desk stroking and loving on him........for all day..... He was in heaven, The Ladies fed him fresh fish and treats....

Wish I was a cat.
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Old 24-06-2015, 13:45   #199
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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However, and in my view, more importantly......

How can we convert all boaters to Multihulls?

OK, OK, I can take a hint!

Speaking of multi-hulls, I don't know much about except that seems to be a damn fine looking one in your avatar.
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Old 24-06-2015, 13:47   #200
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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OK, OK, I can take a hint!

Speaking of multi-hulls, I don't know much about except that seems to be a damn fine looking one in your avatar.
A fine British 27/8 foot Telstar made by Tony Smith of Gemini 105 fame. ITs not mine. I have custody of it for a while. Its a rocket and roomy too.
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Old 24-06-2015, 20:14   #201
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight as well as by hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."

That's what the rule actually says. I take it that "at all times" means just what it says. Then, there are 3 methods mentioned that must be used to keep a proper watch and these are by sight, by hearing, and by all available means appropriate. Sight and hearing are always available to us so should be used "at all times," but the "all other means appropriate" can vary depending on the ships equipment and circumstances and conditions. So, on a dark and stormy night, while you are right that AIS or radar might be more useful than eyeballs, especially at longer ranges, that doesn't imply that you can stop looking or listening in favor of some of your "all available means" that you happen to have onboard that you think are more useful. The first two methods, looking and listening, are still required "at all times," otherwise there would have been two "or's" in the rule in place of the two uses of the phrase "as well as."

In the example in the video, both watchkeepers were at fault with tragic results. In the case of the yacht skipper, he was doing something we've all done countless times, whether we be singlehander or crewed sailor and it was only a very short lapse. He just had really unfortunate timing and much worse luck than the rest of us.

I've found that it's not at all unusual for fishermen to give themselves a "pass" on watchkeeping for periods of time much longer than 5 minutes while actively involved in fishing. Where I live in Maine, it's mostly lobstermen but many other fishermen have a similar attitude. Many of them feel that it's just not realistic for them to maintain a constant and proper watch because they're way too busy FISHING to do that and everyone else, especially "tourists" in yachts should look out for them because they're BUSY making a living, and besides, they hardly ever run into or kill anyone while fishing and they've been doing it for years. Many singlehanders would like to give themselves a similar pass from keeping a proper watch "at all times," using a similar rationale to that which many fishermen use, basically that it's inconvenient to be constantly looking out and besides, they've always done it without causing too much damage. They're right that usually nothing bad happens, but sometimes when anyone, whether he be fisherman, commercial vessel operator, crewed yacht yachtsman, or singlehander, fails to keep a proper watch, tragic circumstances like the one in the video result.

Every vessel shall at all times.....I just don't see a lot of wiggle room there! If you have to take a leak or get a cuppa, call for someone else aboard to take your place on watch. No more "Mr. Nice Guy" and letting everyone else aboard nap, cook dinner, read a book, etc., and singlehanders need to face the fact that there's no way they can even come close to keeping a proper watch "at all times" as the colregs require. I'm not so unrealistic to think we will ever reach the point where we actually all keep proper watches at all times, but as long as fishing vessels give themselves a pass from vigilant watchkeeping because it's inconvenient and difficult to do both simultaneously, and large commercial vessel watchkeepers occasionally treat their responsibilities casually while offshore, and singlehanders tell themselves that it's OK for them to take a 30 minute (or longer) nap, and those of us on crewed vessels continue to take even 5 minute breaks down below, then incidents like this will continue to happen, and as traffic increases, so will collisions. Is it right for fishermen, singlehanders, crewed private boats, or large commercial vessels to give themselves a "pass" from doing what colreg 5 clearly requires, and if so, how long should that pass be for? 1 minute, 5 minutes, 30 minutes, all day while 50+ miles from land, what SHOULD a "realistic" version of colreg 5 say?
AMEN From mean George
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Old 24-06-2015, 21:03   #202
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Correction! SOME Regulations apply to moored vessels as well. Rule 5 doesn't.

Rule 5 is in PART B - STEERING AND SAILING RULES. A boat at anchor is neither steering nor sailing.

Rules which do apply to moored vessels such as required lights/shapes and sound signals appear in other parts of the ColRegs such as PART C and PART D.
So, do "hove to" and/or "lying ahull" come under the STEERING AND SAILING RULES ??

If they don't then single-handing ocean crossings can be legal : )
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Old 24-06-2015, 22:00   #203
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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So, do "hove to" and/or "lying ahull" come under the STEERING AND SAILING RULES ??

If they don't then single-handing ocean crossings can be legal : )
Since you generally need to use sails and/or the helm lashed over to provide steerage when heaving to or lying ahull then yes, Rule 5 would apply.
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Old 24-06-2015, 22:16   #204
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Since you generally need to use sails and/or the helm lashed over to provide steerage when heaving to or lying ahull then yes, Rule 5 would apply.
When lying ahull you don't use sails or rudder....
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Old 24-06-2015, 22:39   #205
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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When lying ahull you don't use sails or rudder....
Don't you lash your helm a-lee to provide steerage and keep the bow from falling off?
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Old 24-06-2015, 22:40   #206
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Since you generally need to use sails and/or the helm lashed over to provide steerage when heaving to or lying ahull then yes, Rule 5 would apply.
You are at anchor and to stop hunting you put up a patch of sail and lash the helm - according to above you are sailing ??
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Old 24-06-2015, 22:42   #207
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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AMEN From mean George
It's actually quite ingeniously written, beginners think they have to follow the rule to the letter and are more carefull while old salts know it's "don't f*** up" rule
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Old 24-06-2015, 23:07   #208
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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Don't you lash your helm a-lee to provide steerage and keep the bow from falling off?
No.....
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Old 24-06-2015, 23:09   #209
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

When lying a hull you don't have steerage so it wouldn't matter if your helm was hardapinto..

Drifters traditional had a steadying sail up when lying to their nets... didn't stop them from being fishing boats.
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Old 25-06-2015, 01:41   #210
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Re: Keeping a Proper Lookout -- A Cautionary Tale

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So, do "hove to" and/or "lying ahull" come under the STEERING AND SAILING RULES ??

If they don't then single-handing ocean crossings can be legal : )
This was discussed in the other thread. You're underway, unless you're NUC
and displaying the right signals for that.

You would not really be entitled to NUC, according to the letter of the Rule, which requires "extraordinary circumstances" like broken engine on a motor vessel, etc. But it was noted that NUC is commonly used by big tankers drifting while waiting for orders.

In my opinion, hove to and showing NUC while getting a good sleep, if far offshore and out of the sea lanes, and broadcasting AIS and with alarms set, is about as proper as a single hander can get. Furthermore I think it's a rather seamanlike way to get some sleep, and the least violation of the rules you could have. In my opinion, it's a pretty good plan. You will not entirely avoid blame if someone runs into you, however, but that is almost always true anyway.

The reason why heaving to and showing NUC is much more seamanlike than just continuing underway is twofold:

1. You have made clear to other mariners what your nav status is -- that is, no one is keeping watch. That way, they know how to deal with you and won't be confused waiting for you to maneuver. Avoiding confusion is an extremely important safety factor, and is one of the main purposes of the Rules.

2. You are not making way. This greatly reduces the risk that you will smash into someone or something while you're asleep. Although of course it does mean that you will lose miles.


I think this is quite in the spirit of the Rules, even if it is a small and technical violation. Much more so than giant tankers with full crews and perfectly good machinery showing NUC and drifting.
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