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Old 24-05-2013, 19:05   #91
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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Originally Posted by frank_f View Post
Here in Canada, the Great Lakes is a zero discharge area. The problem is the officials can't decide what zero discharge is from one day to the next. What you got stopped for yesterday is OK today and what was OK yesterday earns you a fine today, but I think all governments are like that. So many loose laws that require on-site interpretation.



Therein lies the problem. It shouldn't have to be a law that you don't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater or poop in somebody else's back yard (unless they have an outhouse). At what point did we become so mentally deficient that we needed the government to point that out for us? The "Just do what the man with the gun says and everything will be OK" mentality is unacceptable. When did we become 2 legged sheep?



Nemo wasn't angry with society, he was disappointed with it (he was angry with war but what sane person wouldn't be). He saw it as a mishmash of corrupted values where the normal person bore the brunt of all the financial wastes while the elite (rich and socially assisted) were allowed all the gains (any of this sound familiar?). Everybody in Nemo's crew worked for their 'daily bread', it wasn't given to them. There was a regular chain of command as there is on any ship but Nemo didn't get to keep everything just because he was 'captain'. Everything was shared.



Again, just because the government says it's OK to enforce laws they created, does that make it OK? I live in Canada so I may not understand exactly how your system works but here, judges are appointed by the government, not elected by the people. Bottom line is 'curry favour with the people that can advance your career not the ones that can't.' That means follow the laws not the morality. In Canada, we have a legal system. Justice happens after you die.



As far as health care goes, again, I live in Canada. We each pay a little so nobody has to pay a lot. I've been paying into it for 5 decades (as well as my various employers). I had an appendectomy 12 years ago. That was the first time I used it. Still cheaper than having the same surgery done in the US and not putting any money into it for 30+ years. Something you guys might want to think about. I mean $100 for a bottle of aspirins, really?

As far as the police in the main intersection checking seat belts or setting up a RIDE program on a long weekend, been done here for years.

You're right, I don't want some drunk slamming into my car but because you stop me to smell my breath doesn't give you the right to look in my glove box or trunk without probable cause.



I would consider it a complete failure on my part to ask the government to risk their people to save my sorry butt. I go cruising for my enjoyment, I don't HAVE to be out there. I'm not a fisherman or a naval merchant whose livelihood depends on being on the water. As a result, I do everything to take care of myself and not needlessly waste resources that could be better used to help people that really need it. I would go to my grave cursing myself if the Coast Guard spent resources on saving me while a fishing trawler foundered.



Guess I have a different idea of what I expect from society and what society should expect from me.

It ISN'T a "law" that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. That was an example given by a Supreme Court Judge to demonstrate that there are limits to free speech.

Nemo was extremely angry with society. What he claimed in his speech was belied by his actions.
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Old 25-05-2013, 11:38   #92
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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Originally Posted by frank_f View Post


Therein lies the problem. It shouldn't have to be a law that you don't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater or poop in somebody else's back yard (unless they have an outhouse). At what point did we become so mentally deficient that we needed the government to point that out for us? The "Just do what the man with the gun says and everything will be OK" mentality is unacceptable. When did we become 2 legged sheep?


Yep.
......
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Old 25-05-2013, 12:09   #93
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

In Texas a boat operator can be stop and required to take a breath test for alcohol impairment, JUST like a car operator. ABOUT FREAKING TIME!!!
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Old 24-06-2013, 18:47   #94
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Posted by Rakuflames On land, the cops can pull people over at random and do sobriety checks. The Supreme Court has ruled on that one.


I'm thinking u might want to read that SCOTUS decision over again. I can tell u with certainty NO we can't pull people over at random and do sobriety checks.. I'm thinking you meant to say sobriety checkpoints. SCOTUS did uphold sobriety checkpoints.The main reason being they are broad in scope, with everyone on that road having to stop. Even then, people are not pulled out of their cars at random and given field sobriety tests, only those that the officer has probable cause to believe are intoxicated are subjected to tests. Last thing, on lying to cops if cops could put people in jail for people lying to them, there'd be no one around to pay the taxes used to pay their salaries. I doubt anyone who has ever been pulled over can say they haven't told a little whooper or even a big one knowing they really can't afford that ticket coming their way, as for "under oath", police officers usually don't "cross exam" during a trial, even if they did, the offense wouldn't be who the lie was told to, it would be the lie itself that would constitute the offense lying under oath/perjury. The only "law enforcers" who can arrest for being lied to are the Feds, and if you include Feds in with cops, well that's a whole different thread.
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Old 24-06-2013, 18:57   #95
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

Haven't read all the comments. Seems to me that a random boarding is a violation of 4th Amendment. There would have to be probable cause to search or enter a vessel.
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Old 24-06-2013, 19:18   #96
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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Posted by Rakuflames On land, the cops can pull people over at random and do sobriety checks. The Supreme Court has ruled on that one.


I'm thinking u might want to read that SCOTUS decision over again. I can tell u with certainty NO we can't pull people over at random and do sobriety checks.. I'm thinking you meant to say sobriety checkpoints. SCOTUS did uphold sobriety checkpoints.The main reason being they are broad in scope, with everyone on that road having to stop. Even then, people are not pulled out of their cars at random and given field sobriety tests, only those that the officer has probable cause to believe are intoxicated are subjected to tests. Last thing, on lying to cops if cops could put people in jail for people lying to them, there'd be no one around to pay the taxes used to pay their salaries. I doubt anyone who has ever been pulled over can say they haven't told a little whooper or even a big one knowing they really can't afford that ticket coming their way, as for "under oath", police officers usually don't "cross exam" during a trial, even if they did, the offense wouldn't be who the lie was told to, it would be the lie itself that would constitute the offense lying under oath/perjury. The only "law enforcers" who can arrest for being lied to are the Feds, and if you include Feds in with cops, well that's a whole different thread.

Since you actually knew exactly what I meant, you're kust picking.
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Old 12-08-2013, 17:53   #97
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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It's been ruled constitutional for the USCG to board. It is not covered by illegal search and seizure. You are not protected under the Fourth Amendment. It has been challenged and the courts ruled that it does not violate the Fourth.

States can write all the laws that they want but federal law still supersedes state law when there is a conflict.

14 USC § 89 - Law enforcement
(a) The Coast Guard may make inquiries, examinations, inspections, searches, seizures, and arrests upon the high seas and waters over which the United States has jurisdiction, for the prevention, detection, and suppression of violations of laws of the United States. For such purposes, commissioned, warrant, and petty officers may at any time go on board of any vessel subject to the jurisdiction, or to the operation of any law, of the United States, address inquiries to those on board, examine the ship’s documents and papers, and examine, inspect, and search the vessel and use all necessary force to compel compliance. When from such inquiries, examination, inspection, or search it appears that a breach of the laws of the United States rendering a person liable to arrest is being, or has been committed, by any person, such person shall be arrested or, if escaping to shore, shall be immediately pursued and arrested on shore, or other lawful and appropriate action shall be taken; or, if it shall appear that a breach of the laws of the United States has been committed so as to render such vessel, or the merchandise, or any part thereof, on board of, or brought into the United States by, such vessel, liable to forfeiture, or so as to render such vessel liable to a fine or penalty and if necessary to secure such fine or penalty, such vessel or such merchandise, or both, shall be seized.
(b) The officers of the Coast Guard insofar as they are engaged, pursuant to the authority contained in this section, in enforcing any law of the United States shall:
(1) be deemed to be acting as agents of the particular executive department or independent establishment charged with the administration of the particular law; and
(2) be subject to all the rules and regulations promulgated by such department or independent establishment with respect to the enforcement of that law.
(c) The provisions of this section are in addition to any powers conferred by law upon such officers, and not in limitation of any powers conferred by law upon such officers, or any other officers of the United States.

What is interesting is what it does not say. It does not say that other law enforcement may search your vessel. The local water cops cannot search your boat...not constitutionally.

What is notable about this legislation is that it was written at a time when private recreational yachts were unheard of. This was to enable the Federal authorities to monitor contarband and to make sure taxes were paid on commerce. The extension to its current use is unlikely to be retracted from statute as it is carte blanch power in the implimentation of HS objectives.
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Old 12-08-2013, 18:37   #98
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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I know this topic has been discussed several times on the board, but I found this article in Soundings Trade Only to be interesting. Perhaps we have turned a corner. Dealer Outlook » Blog Archive » Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?
This may never apply to the coast guard but it will start precedent for other state law enforcement. Chuck


Above is the OP's 1st post on this topic. I scanned most of the 97 posts only to find the topic of CG legality questioned in most responses which was not questioned in the OP's post.

The question as I see it is just as the OP posted,

"it will start precedent for other state law enforcement"

Here in Massachusetts just about anybody who is related in some manner to law enforcement CAN LEGALLY BOARD YOUR BOAT. That includes harbormasters, environmental police..... you all should recognize those guys,,,,, they drive around in $200K power boats or brand new SUVs with bright blue lights, carry fire arms, have the power to arrest, pretty uniforms and the list goes on. OPH, and many towns and cities that border on the shore line continue to dump sewage into the harbors and bays! Some enforcement indeed!

Sure, we need law enforcement. I support law enforcement but this crap is being carried too far! Too many carry guns, too many have power to arrest. At one time for highway patrol this state had local police, state police and registry police and God only knows how many others. That crap fortunately ended when the registry police who by the way wore jack boots, leather cross chest belts, fire arms and a snappy blue uniform were merged into the state police. The main function of the registry of motor vehicles is to issue license plates and drivers licenses. Registration plates could easily be issued by town clerks. Crazy!
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:08   #99
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

What I don't understand is why an American constitutional law applies to anyone onboard any vessel on the 'high seas' outside the jurisdiction of US law can be compelled to comply with USCG boarding. Where in the world did the US become the world poiceman, controller and sole word on what is legal and what is not by extending their sovereign costitutional authority beyond their sovereign limit?
This is really scary!! When I'm in Mexican, Costa Rican or Panamanian water on board a vessel of non-US flag, what the hell does the US have to do with me??
Is there something I don't understand about internationl law? Phil
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:38   #100
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

Yes, Phil. It has to do with treaties. And foreign agents aboard USCG vessels. And various legal niceties like that. The USCG can't just board anything anywhere, legally. But they do have a variety of grounds besides "you're US-flagged".

And when they have no grounds, you're welcome to tell them to sod off, and then open fire on them. Or file a claim when you get home, an illegal armed boarding could count as an act of aggression or war. Our War of 1812 got started over things like that, illegal boardings and conscription at sea.
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:47   #101
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

Thanks for that hellosailor... I had not considered the treaty aspect. I'm sure you are correct. Just means not cruise in waters that have marine treaties with the US. As a dual citizen, I pick and choose which passport and which flag to use... cheers, Phil
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Old 13-08-2013, 07:01   #102
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

Sorry Phil, but by not sailing in waters that have a treaty with the U.S. you may find it necessary to buy an RV. Many countries utilize that treaty to help curb smuggling, etc. in their waters since they usually don't have the resources or funding to do it themselves. Chuck
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Old 13-08-2013, 07:09   #103
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

now that usa has declared canada and mexico part of their HOME searching cars in canada, it should be interesting to see how many more boardings occur outside usa waters...just a thought...and no, constitution has nothing to do with this.
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Old 13-08-2013, 07:22   #104
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pirate Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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now that usa has declared canada and mexico part of their HOME searching cars in canada, it should be interesting to see how many more boardings occur outside usa waters...just a thought...and no, constitution has nothing to do with this.
Nope... its more school playground/way home...
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Old 13-08-2013, 07:22   #105
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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now that usa has declared canada and mexico part of their HOME searching cars in canada, it should be interesting to see how many more boardings occur outside usa waters...just a thought...and no, constitution has nothing to do with this.
Zee, I think you're thinking of the North American security perimeter. That concept has not been implemented yet, however negotiations have stalled between Canada and United States which would allow law enforcement officers from each country to continue in hot pursuit. That discussion is stalled at present because there's concern as to whose country any court action occur, if a law officer is found to be in breach of any criminal action.
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