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Old 06-05-2013, 07:08   #46
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pirate Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

Keep some guns on board and next time complain to the NRA about Government sponsored harassment of gun owners... they got contacts who CAN stop anything...
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:18   #47
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

Tom, last time you read the 4th Amendment, what did you make of the word "effects" ?

Do you think that protects us from arbitrary searches of...our pocketwatches and lockets perhaps? Or my saddelbags, if I'm on horseback? Or, does it include our horse carriages? And perhaps a carriage and a boat aren't any different that way, are they?

Yes, it really is that simple. "Effects" include the transportation devices used by known rebels carrying sedititous documents. You know, the folks who wrote it. And publicly corresponded about just those points.

Mister Revere's saddlebags were empty when he was captured one night, riding around and promoting treason.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:19   #48
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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Keep some guns on board and next time complain to the NRA about Government sponsored harassment of gun owners... they got contacts who CAN stop anything...

Just a reminder about the NRA. It is a group, millions, of like minded folks that have banded together to prevent the Government from trampling on our right to bear arms. This right is clearly articulated in our Bill of Rights.

The NRA could be a model for the millions of boaters that have to suffer through needless warrantless detainment and boarding of our boats by representative agencies of the US government.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:22   #49
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pirate Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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Just a reminder about the NRA. It is a group, millions, of like minded folks that have banded together to prevent the Government from trampling on our right to bear arms. This right is clearly articulated in our Bill of Rights.

The NRA could be a model for the millions of boaters that have to suffer through needless warrantless detainment and boarding of our boats by representative agencies of the US government.
See what I mean... positive response in a heartbeat...
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:29   #50
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

The NRA could be a model...so could the AARP or any one of a dozen others. But the NRA is not a conventional model, it was started by a couple of ex-Union Army officers who were very upset at the lack of firearm skills in the draftees during the Civil War. A lot of soldiers died because they didn't know how to use guns, or used them poorly. (The US Civil War was our first massive use of draftees, implemented under the militia laws, which mandate state and federal military service in the US.)

So the NRA was started, not to protect any rights, but to ensure that the general public (draftees) would have basic competence in marksmanship, and that was extended to hunting and sporting as a way to maintain proficiency with arms.

It wasn't until many years (over 100) later that the 2nd Amendment issues became significant, and focusing on these issues just about tore the NRA apart. A large portion of the membership did not want to go there. A larger portion figured that if guns were banned...the whole ballgame was over.

The NRA was never about "Rights" until it was forced to be.

And the AARP and AAA get better rates for car rentals and hotels, too. :-)
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:58   #51
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But AARP also sold its soul for the insurance profits. NRA only has the one interest, keeping guns in the hands of Americans.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:07   #52
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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But AARP also sold its soul for the insurance profits. NRA only has the one interest, keeping guns in the hands of Americans.
That is an interesting perspective since the NRA is also accepting millions of dollars every year from the gun industry, including some manufactures who donate a percentage of their annual profits directly to the NRA... But I am sure, unlike the AARP, they have there members best interest in mind... This Is How The Gun Industry Funds The NRA - Business Insider

Wow this thread has gone from searches of vessels, to expert opinions on cops, to ragging on the AARP and now how the NRA benefits us all...

Maybe we should move onto religion or maybe illegal immigration?
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:11   #53
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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That is an interesting perspective since the NRA is also accepting millions of dollars every year from the gun industry, including some manufactures who donate a percentage of their annual profits directly to the NRA... But I am sure, unlike the AARP, they have there members best interest in mind... This Is How The Gun Industry Funds The NRA - Business Insider

Wow this thread has gone from searches of vessels, to expert opinions on cops, to ragging on the AARP and now how the NRA benefits us all...

Maybe we should move onto religion or maybe illegal immigration?
Naw, let's go with boarding at anchor while using the best anchor in the world, the Delta.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:37   #54
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

"That is an interesting perspective since the NRA is also accepting millions of dollars every year from the gun industry,"
An interesting way to phrase things, but the NRA was soliciting money from interested parties, and one might assume that gun makers have an interest in making sure a market exists for their products. Whether that is for duck hunting or other mundane purposes, or politics, really doesn't matter.
The NRA solicits contributions and one of their "industry" contributors was Midway, who sell shooting supplies, with a "round up" campaign asking customers to simply round up their order to the next dollar, with the difference going to the NRA. You'd probably call that an "industry" contribution but the money came from individuals.

On the other hand the AARP, like many organizations, gets a percent back from the insurance companies that they endorse. They don't necessarily endorse the best companies, and that's what the debate was about. Exclusive deals from vendors who demand a sole-source endorsement in exchange for their contribution. Another organization I belong to has a similar insurance deal, and many of the members are unhappy to learn that the "endorsed" vendor offers a lousy deal to everyone except the association.

NRA contributors don't get any exclusives in return. Very different from the AARP selling endorsements.

Does the gun industry have a vested interest in supporting the NRA? Sure. Isn't that why gasoline companies used to give away highway maps, so their customers could take more trips and use more product? Nothing nefarious or secret about that.

McBurger putting extra salt on the fries, so you'll buy another Coke, now that might be nefarious. And the ones who don't tell you they'll give you free refills, those guys are really nefarious. Heck, for that matter, if you sell Coke on your fountains, you can't sell Pepsi. Or vice versa. And if you put Coke in the display case that Pepsi supplied to your deli, goodbye display case.

Maybe the watercops are just checking, because surely, one a them boats with the galleys just MUST have some fresh donuts on it...one of them must...
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Old 06-05-2013, 23:02   #55
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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Andy-
Your citation at the Wiki disproves your point when they say right up top "The theory of nullification has never been legally upheld;[1] rather, the Supreme Court has rejected it.[2]"

All a state can do if they disagree with the fed, is take it to the federal courts. Or, as a number have in the past, call up the State Militia. Yes, "Militia" is a dirty word today because states had taken to arms in the past. In the 1900's, not just the 1800's.
Hello HelloSailor

You are correct that the USSC has never upheld the process, however there are numerous (or at least a strong several) instances when nullification, or the threat of, has been used successfully. Examples include:
Jefferson & Madison use against Alien&Sedition act of 1798
Northern states use against federal embargo in 1807
Connecticut use against threat of conscription in 1812
Wisconsin use against Fugitive Slave Act 1850

It makes sense the USSC does not uphold a concept which limits its own scope, I just wanted to point out there are historical presidents of states upholding their own powers.

Andy
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:00   #56
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

Sheesh, if you believe there are so many boardings going on , thats its time to do something, things have got very bad indeed in the USofA.

Dave
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:37   #57
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

Sheesh Dave, How would you like to be pulled over for no good reason even once as you go about minding your own business as a good citizen??

The time I was pulled over I just starting a weekend cruise. I was detained for a half hour and was asked questions that were not anyone business like "did I have firearms on board?" The answer was yes, two, because the two CC officers each were visibly packing.

Why did they ask permission to board? I responded by telling them no not at this time and then they told me no wasn't an option.

I told them I would be happy to submit to a safety inspection at a mutual agreeable time and I was told that wasn't an option. The CC will not do a safety inspection by appointment or if you show up at the station when it is good for all involved.

The whole process was IMO unconstitutional and it felt like it. Additionally, it wasted a half an hour of our trip time and about 4 hours of mental karma time.
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:43   #58
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

oh, I wasnt being facetious, merely that yes I agree with you, but in reality if the situation is such that you and others so affected feel the need to protest, it shows how far in the USA the issue of interference of the state( local and federal) has gone. ie the issue is much much bigger then a few yacht boardings.

I mean elsewhere boardings at sea are a very rare occurrence, Ive been boarded several times in teh US, only once elsewhere , yet my ratio of sailing there is 1:10.

Dave
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:45   #59
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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oh, I wasnt being facetious, merely that yes I agree with you, but in reality if the situation is such that you and others so affected feel the need to protest, it shows how far in the USA the issue of interference of the state( local and federal) has gone. ie the issue is much much bigger then a few yacht boardings.

I mean elsewhere boardings at sea are a very rare occurrence, Ive been boarded several times in teh US, only once elsewhere , yet my ratio of sailing there is 1:10.

Dave
I personally would rather rant on CF then do anything substantive.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:00   #60
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Re: Is random boarding of vessels unconstitutional?

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I personally would rather rant on CF then do anything substantive.
I know, it can be quite therapeutic to discuss this with a group of people completely uninterested in the outcome.

dave
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