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Old 10-09-2012, 05:25   #61
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Re: Is an ICC Necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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Originally Posted by johnandtessa View Post
We went through the same questions this spring prior to our Atlantic crossing. From Annapolis anyway, it was hard to get clear info on the ICC requirements and the Brits I spoke to tended to give differing info. So, we bagged it and after 3 months of dozens of marinas in Azores, Portugal and Spain, we have yet to be asked for the ICC or any similar proof of competence. But, boat documentation and proof of insurance is requested by all. We have not gone east of Spain yet (Turkey final destination) but so far no need for the ICC.
John - Tenho
I can only speak for UK residents but if you get stopped or boarded or Portugal or Spain the authorities require ICC as proof of confidence, they were not interested in RYA qualifications which is quite ironic because if you have RYA dayskipper you can get ICC free of charge with RYA membership.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:41   #62
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Re: Is an ICC Necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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I can only speak for UK residents but if you get stopped or boarded or Portugal or Spain the authorities require ICC as proof of confidence, they were not interested in RYA qualifications which is quite ironic because if you have RYA dayskipper you can get ICC free of charge with RYA membership.
Did you get boarded before or after lunch

The legal side belongs in a philosophy forum, having next to nothing to do with day to day reality

Day to day it's probably best to have these encounters after lunch, smile a lot and ask who is winning the football There is no "way it is".
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:59   #63
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Re: Is an ICC Necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This is factually wrong and is not for example the case in Croatia, While countries follow the rules of Comity, they dont have to. Croatia imposes a specific requirement that UK nationals must have some form of competency cert to sail in their waters,They accept a long list of certificates, including ICC, and most RYA certs.

Fundementally and Ive said it many times. Your boat does not afford you "diplomatic immunity". You are while within territorial waters ( and not on innocent passage , see the definition) , you are subject to whateverlaws and regulations such countries may decide to apply.

This is as much true in france, which enforces its leisure craft safety regulations on all leisure vessels within its national waters as it sis in Croatia.

The Uk rules or lack of them does not apply once you sail over the horizon

Dave
Dave,

I've asked the Danish Maritime Authority about this. The answer is that competency credentials do indeed "follow the flag" If you need it in your home country - you need it elsewhere. If you don't need it at home - you don't need it elsewhere.

That is the legality - While all countries should recognize this, some don't (Croatia f.eks.). You can then argue about it with them and you will lose. But that is a different story.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:40   #64
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Originally Posted by carstenb

Dave,

I've asked the Danish Maritime Authority about this. The answer is that competency credentials do indeed "follow the flag" If you need it in your home country - you need it elsewhere. If you don't need it at home - you don't need it elsewhere.

That is the legality - While all countries should recognize this, some don't (Croatia f.eks.). You can then argue about it with them and you will lose. But that is a different story.
I can tell you your ministry is wrong. Flag does not prevent the execution of local laws. They apply to ships and yachts. If a country requires x or y regulations , then it's sovereign. End of story. Croatia for example decided so and what it has done as its a sovereign country and lays down laws for its terrority


An anyway what " ministry" knows anything about yachting. Pleeeese
Dave
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Old 11-09-2012, 22:00   #65
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Re: Is an ICC Necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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I can tell you your ministry is wrong. Flag does not prevent the execution of local laws. They apply to ships and yachts. If a country requires x or y regulations , then it's sovereign. End of story. Croatia for example decided so and what it has done as its a sovereign country and lays down laws for its terrority


An anyway what " ministry" knows anything about yachting. Pleeeese
Dave
plus 1

I know that Queesland (Aus) REQUIRES licences, its interesting to see which international licences they do recognise.
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/~/media/0d...ation_list.pdf
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Old 14-09-2012, 08:43   #66
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I am a yachtmaster ocean. I would be happy to give friends boating lessons (and I do sometimes), but if any of them decided to do some serious ocean sailing, I would strongly recommend that they get a real sailing education. Ocean sailing is not only about "learning to sail" There are a number of other issues, stability, loading, meteorology, navigation (yes even a sextant), not to mention heavy weather sailing, anchoring etc etc etc.

To answer your first post - no, Yachtmaster courses are not just for poshy yachty types who hang around the clubs. They are for serious sailors who have a healthy respect for the sea and who realize they do not know it all.
Exactly right.
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Old 14-09-2012, 09:35   #67
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Re: Is an ICC Necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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...I can tell you your ministry is wrong. Flag does not prevent the execution of local laws. They apply to ships and yachts. If a country requires x or y regulations , then it's sovereign. End of story...
You are quite wrong. You are confusing the issue - there is (a) flag country of the vessel, (b) country where the vessel is located and (c) country of residency of the skipper/operator.

If a vessel is flagged in the U.K., where there are no licensing requirements, then another country cannot legally require any certification for the skipper operating that vessel.

The rules are very different for operating a vessel flagged in a country in that country - then they may stipulate minimum requirements. This is what the referred Australian document covers - foreigners operating Australian boats in Australia. Not foreign-flagged vessels in Australian waters.

While there is no international law as such, the IMO has established conventions (IMO | Conventions) which most countries are signatories to. There is also the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

If your country is a signatory to UNCLOS then that law applies first, then national law when it comes to maritime matters not in inland waters. The law is specified
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/conventi...s/unclos_e.pdf

Section 3, Subsection A (Right of innocent passage) Article 21-2, Section 3, article 45, article 94, Article 110

ARTICLE 217, 218, 219, 220, 226!

Note that this is letter of the law, which is the subject of the thread. How some local authorities choose to act when it is in contradiction of law is another matter entirely. Since an ICC or similar ticket is pretty easy get and one always learns new things on the way to a license I know what I would do (have done).
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Old 14-09-2012, 11:45   #68
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If a vessel is flagged in the U.K., where there are no licensing requirements, then another country cannot legally require any certification for the skipper operating that vessel.
It is you who is mistaken. Firstly leave aside " innocent passage " that in effect ( look up the definition) means not going into port. Outside of that the flag of you boat does not mean that a countries territorial laws do not apply to you, as a foreign flagged boat. Remember once inside national waters you are IN the country. No more than driving a foreign registration car does not mean you only obey your own countries law.

Croatia requires competency Certs. To visit its national waters in a leisure vessel. that's the LAW. French safety requirements, such as the carriage of flares etc while in their national waters is the LAW.

There is the rule of Comity. Traditionally countries respect each others rules. but it isnt mandatory. For example in Ireland and the US there are specific lifejacket rules , these apply to all leisure vessels in national waters irrespective of flag and irrespective of home country rules. Under Comity most countries extend recognition to other countries rules. So that they do not ask you for more then is required in the home country. HOWEVER. It is only a courtesy, if a country decides otherwise it can app,y whatever rules it deems neccessary.

On YBW there was a massive row concerning the necessity to be registered and have such documents to prove it, as UK leisure don't actually need even registration, yet the French replied that their law requires it and that law applies to visiting vessels and they can fine you otherwise.

Again dont confuse " innocent passage" very few leisure vessels are on innocent passage.

Sailors repeatedly like to peddle the myth that somehow flag registration means your boat is in effect like an embassy, ie home rules apply. Nothing could be further from the truth.

You suggest these countries are acting outside some law, what nonsense of so they'd get sued for wrongful arrest. I think you'll find they're on solid legal ground.

Dave
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Old 14-09-2012, 14:34   #69
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Re: Is an ICC Necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

Reasonably clear rules for non-resident boaters in Canada; extracted from several official documents:

"The Competency of Operators of Pleasure Craft Regulations require that all operators of pleasure craft fitted with a motor have proof of competency and proof of age on board at all times."

"The Regulations apply to non-residents if:
• They operate their pleasure craft in Canadian waters for more than 44 consecutive days or,
• They operate a pleasure craft that is licensed or registered in Canada (including rented or chartered boats).
The Regulations do not apply to non-residents who operate their pleasure craft (licensed in a country other than Canada) in Canadian waters for less than 45 consecutive days. Please note that a proof of residence will be required on board at all times."

"For non-residents, proof of competency can take one of three forms:
1. A Pleasure Craft Operator Card;
2. A completed boat rental safety checklist (for power-driven rental boats); or,
3. An operator card or equivalent which meets the requirements of their state or country."
"...a certificate or other similar document by the person’s state or country of residence attesting that the person has acquired the boating safety knowledge required by the state or country."

My comment: the exam for the Pleasure Craft Operator Card is a straightforward multiple choice test. This is the only required credential in Canada for power or sail pleasure craft.
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