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Old 09-06-2011, 17:23   #16
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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Originally Posted by jim_thomsen View Post
When I was planning to sail in Europe for a few years I tried to get the ICC, but it's only available for residents of the UK. I was able to get a Certificate of Competence from the ASA in California that looks very official. But in 3 years of sailing to many countries no one ever asked to see it. It’s probably required by some bare boat charter companies.

Hi Jim, you can take the course In Gibraltar where I did my RYA Day Skipper www.sailing.gi once you have passed you then have to send copy of your pass certificate to the RYA in the UK who will send you an ICC certificate to keep Spain, Greece and Portugal Happy! When I did my course there was an american, a guy from Denmark and a guy from Thailand who all took the RYA courses and got certificates, so I dont think it is just Brits that this is available to! God knows why Spain, Portugal and Greece insist on this bloody ICC as Day Skipper is a long way above it!!!
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Old 09-06-2011, 18:19   #17
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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When I was planning to sail in Europe for a few years I tried to get the ICC, but it's only available for residents of the UK.
The RYA and the ISA now offer ICCs to english capable students, whose countries do not issue ICCs. ( this is a recent change in the rules).

Quote:
The ICC is the next step after Competent Crew and before Day Skipper, Spain, Greece and Portugal are countries who have been asking visiters for proof of it, not all of the time, but it is getting more common, especialy here in Spain!
The ICC does not sit into the RYA scheme of training, its a standarised cert, controlled by the UN Economic commision for Europe. The country issuing body , like the RYA in the UK, can create equivalents so , that if you have a particulat national ticket you can automatically get a ICC, For example RYA Bay Skipper or higher, ( YM Coastal, YM Offshore, YM Ocean) can automatically get an ICC without further exams. The same is true in some other countries.

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Old 10-06-2011, 07:46   #18
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Thanks for all the replies, your right it turns out you don't need a Yacht master, just a day skipper certificate to apply. I have found a way of taking an ICC test, which is half a day still about £100 though! Sorry if it sounded a little bit aggressive but it does annoy me that on top of all the cost of buying, maintaining, and mooring a boat, you also have the added cost of things like ICC's which the U.K government was probably recommended to sign up to by the same RYA experts that stood to gain from the legislation.
I am not worried about getting asked for one in Jamaica or U.S particularly, just that we fall on the first hurdle by not being allowed to leave port in France or Spain, if we choose to go via there. The irony is that a more experienced crew would be able to avoid French and Spanish ports altogether and head straight south for the Azores, hence never get asked for and ICC even though they will more than have one, where as we are set to be punished for playing it too safe by a piece of safety regulation!

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I'm assuming the 'workers' actually applied for the jobs, that they knew the rate of pay, and decided to trade their time and skills for the wages offered. Hard to see where the crime occured.

You're obviously well educated... you express yourself better than many on the forum, but when you're cruising, that chip on your shoulder is going to be a handicap.
The cruising community is made up of an egalitarian group with a shared love of the cruising life, and they don't much care if you're welder, musician, professor, or doctor. The sea doesn't give a stuff if your collar is blue or white.
The fact is that the capitalist class collectively own all the means by which the working class can sell their labour (live), it matters little that workers have a chose which capitalist they sell it to (they often don't by the way) just the fact that they are forced to sell it to them is what constitutes their (our) wage slavery. There is sailing analogies here, its like me saying to you; 'well I know you need saving from that sinking boat your on, but it is going to cost you £2000, your choice', 'Don't worry' you may reply; 'there are other people in the area who can save me' 'Yes' I reply 'but they are my mates and will charge you the same amount' This the position of the working class.

I don't care if your a welder, musician, professor, or doctor, my quarrel doesn't lye with the working class white/blue collared or otherwise. We all have a collective interest in freedom from a society that exploits us, including those white collar wage slaves that have managed to scrape a bit more out of capitalism than the rest of us.

Your right the sea doesn't care if you collars blue or white, but if your a capitalist and can buy expensive RYA type training or the latest EPIRB, then the sea may prove a little more forgiving.

Perhaps I was being a bit provocative, but these thing affect me I find it hard to keep quiet.
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:14   #19
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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Originally Posted by Johnny Mercer View Post
Thanks for all the replies, your right it turns out you don't need a Yacht master, just a day skipper certificate to apply. I have found a way of taking an ICC test, which is half a day still about £100 though! Sorry if it sounded a little bit aggressive but it does annoy me that on top of all the cost of buying, maintaining, and mooring a boat, you also have the added cost of things like ICC's which the U.K government was probably recommended to sign up to by the same RYA experts that stood to gain from the legislation.
I am not worried about getting asked for one in Jamaica or U.S particularly, just that we fall on the first hurdle by not being allowed to leave port in France or Spain, if we choose to go via there. The irony is that a more experienced crew would be able to avoid French and Spanish ports altogether and head straight south for the Azores, hence never get asked for and ICC even though they will more than have one, where as we are set to be punished for playing it too safe by a piece of safety regulation!



The fact is that the capitalist class collectively own all the means by which the working class can sell their labour (live), it matters little that workers have a chose which capitalist they sell it to (they often don't by the way) just the fact that they are forced to sell it to them is what constitutes their (our) wage slavery. There is sailing analogies here, its like me saying to you; 'well I know you need saving from that sinking boat your on, but it is going to cost you £2000, your choice', 'Don't worry' you may reply; 'there are other people in the area who can save me' 'Yes' I reply 'but they are my mates and will charge you the same amount' This the position of the working class.

I don't care if your a welder, musician, professor, or doctor, my quarrel doesn't lye with the working class white/blue collared or otherwise. We all have a collective interest in freedom from a society that exploits us, including those white collar wage slaves that have managed to scrape a bit more out of capitalism than the rest of us.

Your right the sea doesn't care if you collars blue or white, but if your a capitalist and can buy expensive RYA type training or the latest EPIRB, then the sea may prove a little more forgiving.

Perhaps I was being a bit provocative, but these thing affect me I find it hard to keep quiet.
Jonny, as people have already explained you do not need a Day Skippers Ticket to apply for an ICC, and as a UK skipper on a UK registered boat, you do not need in France or Spain unless you are planning to enter the French inland waterways where the ICC with CEVNI endoresment is required from everyone.

The reason the ICC / CEVNI came into being was to ensure a Europe wide standard that could be understood cross borders irrigardless of their languages and has nothing to do with money. It prevents someone who does not know the correct procedures, signals, signage, pilotage from endangering others.

I'm with the others who've indicated you sound intelligent enough to perhaps learn the sailing world is no different to the land world in some basic respects. In both it's usually best to listen and assimilate before putting your mouth into gear.

Do that and you'll possibly loose that obvious chip, almost definately appreciate a wider scope of the new sailing companions that you'll be meeting on your travels, and hopefully give them an equal chance to enjoy meeting you too.

Good luck.

JOHN
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:11   #20
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

Quote:
Thanks for all the replies, your right it turns out you don't need a Yacht master, just a day skipper certificate to apply. I have found a way of taking an ICC test, which is half a day still about £100 though! Sorry if it sounded a little bit aggressive but it does annoy me that on top of all the cost of buying, maintaining, and mooring a boat, you also have the added cost of things like ICC's which the U.K government was probably recommended to sign up to by the same RYA experts that stood to gain from the legislation.
I am not worried about getting asked for one in Jamaica or U.S particularly, just that we fall on the first hurdle by not being allowed to leave port in France or Spain, if we choose to go via there. The irony is that a more experienced crew would be able to avoid French and Spanish ports altogether and head straight south for the Azores, hence never get asked for and ICC even though they will more than have one, where as we are set to be punished for playing it too safe by a piece of safety regulation!
Jeepers Johnny, what has the RYA done to deserve your ire.

You dont need a RYA cert to get an ICC, you can do the direct assesment exam and receive it without having any other qualification.

The ICC is not the child of the RYA, the ICC grew out of a European desire to harmonise the requirements for boat competency, especially on busy Inland commercial waterways. The UK signed up so as to allow its citizens to access such a qualification.

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Old 10-06-2011, 12:23   #21
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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Originally Posted by Unicorn Dreams View Post
In the USA no licenses aren't required except for some states wanting Boating Safety Courses.

My experiences have been legal here, legal there. Inland Rules may be different as they are private waters.

Never seen a marina in salt water YET that was classed as inland waterway. Could be though.
The demarcation line for the SF Bay is about two miles outside of the Golden Gate Bridge. This is where the Inland Rules apply. The water inside the line is not always 35 parts per thousand but it is close at times, especially in the late summer and fall before the seasonal rains start. We don't get down to 1 part per thousand until we get to about to the confluence of the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers which are about 50 miles inland from the line of demarcation. Salinities under 1 PPT are generally considered fresh water. There are dozens of marinas in the SF Bay.
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Old 10-06-2011, 13:41   #22
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow
The ICC is only mandatory for Inland Waterways but I know that Portugal and Greece seem very keen that visiting Yachtmens have them.
I have got my travel document stamped a couple of times in Samos now and the question of skipper certification has not come up.

I have decided to ignore the whole ICC thing as long as Sweden does not issue it and I am sailing on my Swedish yacht. I will get the Swedish coastal skipper quality even though Sweden does not require it. The ICC is not enforceable as long as it is not universally issued. Although the ICC will probably save some headaches in some ports.
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Old 10-06-2011, 15:07   #23
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

Hi - the link at About the ICC | The ICC and Proof of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA will give you a reasonable low down, and in particular that the ICC is not a money spinner invented by the RYA but actually a document created to deal with other countries' desire for certification which is not required by the UK.

The UK, like (parts of?) the USA does not insist on any certification to operate a boat on tidal/sea water (ie no inland waterways). Some countries - indeed many - require more regulation both of the skipper's competence and the boat's seaworthiness. It is an extremely easy and cheap way of dealing with that expectation. I have not been asked for it, but I know people (Americans) in Italy who were asked for a certificate and could not produce one and were threatened with a large fine. In the end they weren't charged.

It may seem pointless to you and every now and then someone gets really heated on forums like this one by the expectation of some countries that you have this certification. (The same row erupts about boat certification which is also not obligatory in the UK but is requested absolutely everywhere in continental Europe.)

If you're in a country you abide by that country's laws (subject to objecting to major human rights abuses, genocide etc and I'm sorry but requiring a skipper's licence is not an abuse of your human rights!) It is a lot cheaper than most other kit on your boat, simple to obtain and comforting to have. Maybe you'll never use it but then, I assume you do carry flares.
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Old 10-06-2011, 15:37   #24
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If you're in a country you abide by that country's laws (subject to objecting to major human rights abuses, genocide etc and I'm sorry but requiring a skipper's licence is not an abuse of your human rights!) It is a lot cheaper than most other kit on your boat, simple to obtain and comforting to have. Maybe you'll never use it but then, I assume you do carry flares.
Cheap and easy for brits maybe, but as sweden has not ratified the ICC its not the case for me.

Untill fully ratified by all EU countries, enforcing the icc is a case of violating the priciples set out in the eu in charter in regards to freedom of movement.
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Old 10-06-2011, 16:01   #25
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

I can't imagine that in a million years an American yachtsman arriving in the UK would be asked to produce any kind of certificate.
Who would ask for one? The harbour master wouldn't be interested, the customs don't care, and most of the Maritime and Coastguard agency are being made redundant.
Come on over and enjoy the lousy June weather we're having!
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Old 10-06-2011, 18:18   #26
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

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This the position of the working class.

I don't care if your a welder, musician, professor, or doctor, my quarrel doesn't lye with the working class white/blue collared or otherwise. We all have a collective interest in freedom from a society that exploits us, including those white collar wage slaves that have managed to scrape a bit more out of capitalism than the rest of us.

Your right the sea doesn't care if you collars blue or white, but if your a capitalist and can buy expensive RYA type training or the latest EPIRB, then the sea may prove a little more forgiving.

Perhaps I was being a bit provocative, but these thing affect me I find it hard to keep quiet.
You can't choose where you're born, or in what class, but you can sure choose to remain there or move. You can remain a wingeing worker, or use our free society to get out of it... Capitalism is the system, so use it, or try to change it (a waste of time), or go and live in China or North Korea. It's all up to you.

I do know where you're coming from though. I worked for a very wealthy man whose attitude in business was "...you're either the f%*kor or the f%*kee, and we're always the f%*kor".
It didn't take a genius to work out that if I was working for him, I was probably a 'f%*kee' to him too. But it suited me to sell my time and abilities to him... my choice. Now he's dead and his millions don't mean a thing, and I can afford to have a boat and live the life of a cruiser, fairly securely thanks to the money I made out of him. I figure I'm the winner.

Capitalism on land and storms at sea are both beyond your control. You can complain about being a victim of either, but nobody cares, or set your sails for the conditions and get as many miles out of it as you can. Your choice.

Now would you like some fish with that chip, or can I buy you beer
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Old 10-06-2011, 20:15   #27
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Untill fully ratified by all EU countries, enforcing the icc is a case of violating the priciples set out in the eu in charter in regards to freedom of movement.
You misunderstand the principls involved. The basis of freedom of movement is that an EU country may only impose such restrictions as it imposes on it's own citizens. In other words it cannot the discriminate against other EU citizens. It does not mean that you can avoid those rules.

Hence if an EU country required it's citizens to have ICC, it can require you as a visitor to have it also.
In practice a country cannot normally expect you to produce documentation that your own country does not generate then most do not so ask. However some persist and do ask.

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Old 11-06-2011, 00:08   #28
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You misunderstand the principls involved. The basis of freedom of movement is that an EU country may only impose such restrictions as it imposes on it's own citizens. In other words it cannot the discriminate against other EU citizens. It does not mean that you can avoid those rules.

Hence if an EU country required it's citizens to have ICC, it can require you as a visitor to have it also.
In practice a country cannot normally expect you to produce documentation that your own country does not generate then most do not so ask. However some persist and do ask.

Dave
That make perfect sense when it comes to Greeks and non-Greeks sailing on Greek registered vessels, but when it comes to foreign vessels the ICC is unworkable until it is at least universally accepted in the EU.

Look at it like they do with car licences. Even though drivers licence test standard vary greatly throughout the world, every one and anyone can get an international drivers licence and it is accepted with limited restrictions ( min age and lenght of time in foreign country).

Within the eu, there are laws that state that a licence issued in another country is valid as long as it remains valid at home, these licences can even be exchanged. This is dispite countries like Germany & Sweden having long and expensive licenceing processes whilst In other eu countries it (at least was) as easy as opening a packet of cornflakes.

If a Swede sailing a Swedish vessel carrying all the licencing required by Swedish authorities is refused clearence or fined for not having an ICC, then that is resticting freedom of movement.
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Old 11-06-2011, 00:37   #29
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Doing yachtmaster or day skipper has nothing to do with snobbery. If you are considering crossing the Atlantic a thorough understanding of weather and navigation might save others having to put their lives at risk.
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:25   #30
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Re: Is an ICC necessary for UK - Canaries - Jamaica?

There is no licensing requirement in the U.K. for boats. You don't need an ICC or anything similar for the United Kingdom. This certificate is often required by charter companies before they will give your one of their boats, though.
Almost all the other EU countries require a boating license of some type in order for their residents to operate their (EU-registered) boats in EU waters.
Since you are on a U.S. vessel and are not a resident of the EU they cannot make any stipulations as to licensing as long as you are legal for your boat's flag country.
This has been custom for many years - imagine the chaos and problems if each country were to require a local license for visiting captains and boats.
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