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Old 31-05-2010, 14:29   #106
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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Personally I see few contentious issues here, although I have seen a debate about the meaning of "operational radar." Does that mean the radar is operating or has the potential to be operating?
I've always understood Rule 5 to imply that if you have radar you must use it as part of standing a proper watch.
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Old 31-05-2010, 15:49   #107
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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
I've always understood Rule 5 to imply that if you have radar you must use it as part of standing a proper watch.
I posted the a link to the Handbook (Rule6.html) and thought I would get their interpretation:

Quote:
Radar-equiped vessels are obligated to use their radar in restricted visibility unless there is a compelling reason not to. Rules 5, 6, 7, and 19 together place great emphasis on the effective use of radar.
It seems to be conditional.
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Old 31-05-2010, 17:08   #108
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Again, it comes down to apportioning blame after a collision. If you have a radar that coud have been used but wasn't--even in clear visibility--that will be unfavorably viewed. The conservative mariner always operates radar while underway.

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Old 31-05-2010, 18:29   #109
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Rules v. Enforceable Code of Conduct...

As a general thought I have been wondering if the ColRegs are more of an enforceable code of conduct than a set of rules.

In racing they are clearly rules, there is a single body to enforce them, and an expectation that there are going to be winners and losers.

However for the rest of the marine world they are more of an "enforceable" guide.

There are multiple bodies that may enforce them, and any one of them could "rule" differently to another.
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Old 31-05-2010, 18:53   #110
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In Canada, ColRegs are regulations under the Canada Shipping Act. They have the force of law.
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Old 31-05-2010, 19:40   #111
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Yes, but didn't I read previously in this post that pleasure boats were excepted?

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Old 31-05-2010, 19:44   #112
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I thought someone had posted something with that regard but in the Shipping Act it actually says this :
Previous Next
APPLICATION



3. (1) Subject to subsection (2), these Regulations apply in respect of

(a) every Canadian ODAS and Canadian vessel located in any waters, including every Canadian vessel that is an exploration or exploitation vessel engaged in exploration or exploitation activities pursuant to a licence issued by the Government of Canada;


(b) every pleasure craft, foreign ODAS and foreign vessel located in Canadian waters, including every foreign vessel that is an exploration or exploitation vessel engaged in exploration or exploitation activities pursuant to a licence issued by the Government of Canada; and


(c) every seaplane on or over Canadian waters.


(2) As provided for Canadian vessels in subsection 7(3) of the Act, where the laws of a country other than Canada are applicable to a Canadian ODAS that is within the waters of that country and those laws are inconsistent with these Regulations, the laws of that country prevail to the extent of the inconsistency in respect of the Canadian ODAS.


(3) Where there is any inconsistency between a provision of the Rules and a provision of the Rules that falls under the heading “Canadian Modifications”, the latter provision prevails to the extent of the inconsistency.


(4) These Regulations do not apply in respect of a vessel or aircraft that belongs to the Canadian Forces or a foreign military force or in respect of any other vessel or aircraft that is under the command, control or direction of the Canadian Forces.


(5) Where there is any inconsistency between a provision of Rule 1 and a provision of this section, the provision of this section prevails to the extent of the inconsistency.

SOR/83-202, s. 2; SOR/90-702, s. 2; SOR/2002-429, ss. 3, 14(E); SOR/2004-27, s. 20(E); SOR/2008-272, s. 6.


COMPLIANCE



4. The following persons shall ensure that the applicable requirements of sections 5 and 6 and of the Rules set out in Schedule 1 are met:

(a) the authorized representative of a vessel and the master of a Canadian vessel;


(b) the owner, the charterer and the operator of a pleasure craft or seaplane and the person in charge of a pleasure craft or seaplane; and


(c) the owner of an ODAS.

SOR/90-702, s. 3; SOR/2008-272, s. 6.
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Old 31-05-2010, 20:23   #113
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Ladies

I see I have opened a bag of worms here. And, my internet searching skills (poor) have not proved any case history that I assumed were out there.

I will now apologies for my comment that there was U.S. case history. I have found none.

However, May I explain some of my attitude;

While running power driven vessels on the Atlantic ICW for most of 40 years. I have observed many confusing and welcome actions by snailboters. The smarter ones have their main engine running at draw bridges. Seems easy enough, They can hold station into the wind while waiting for the bridge to open, most times with all or most rags still up. I have witnessed snailbotes actually time an opening perfectly and sail rite on thru (Wow, That’s cool). With or with out power? I would be guessing but I have seen the exhaust telling me that something was running.
I have witnessed in the smaller parts of the ditch, with and with out air, snailbotes motoring, no doubt about it. Maybe the rag was used as a steadying sail, dun no.
I have observed flagged vessels from the US, Canada and some caribien flags out there. Private, corporate, skippered? Dun no. Sometimes I wonder sometimes what a big ocean snailbote is doing in the ditch on such a nice day. Confusing.

What I have NEVER noticed was a day shape for a snailbote with rags up and under power.

So for safety’s sake, in the worst case scenarios planning in my mind on how to handle a situation that may come up, I look for who is smoking. If it’s smoking, he has power to help avoid a situation if it comes up.
Like I tried to state earlier, who would NOT put there engine in gear to avoid an incident.

Good day Ladies,
Ralph Crapps
Jacksonville FL
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Old 31-05-2010, 20:49   #114
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I am not sure of the location of the demarcation lines for the Inland Rules in ICW. But if smaller sailboats (under 12m)are within the demarcation lines, they are not required to show day shapes.

Quote:
A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. [Inld]
As a general observation, any sailboat with its main only, sheeted in, making way (especially in light winds) is likely under power.

Jack
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Old 31-05-2010, 20:55   #115
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What I have NEVER noticed was a day shape for a snailbote with rags up and under power.


I assume Inland Rules on the ICW - sailboats under 12 metres don't need a shape, but may display the inverted cone.

Quote:
If it’s smoking, he has power to help avoid a situation if it comes up.
Quote:
Like I tried to state earlier, who would NOT put there engine in gear to avoid an incident.
I'm guessing a lot of "incidents" come up around you.
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Old 31-05-2010, 20:55   #116
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Perspective.

Hi everyone… I have been travelling this last week so have just caught up on all the lively posts.

Some basic comments to help maintain perspective and to give this thread some useful direction:

1/... “Interpreting” COLREGS can be a subjective thing based on vessel size, type, prevailing conditions and as always …..the courts final guiding assessment of joint responsibility for a collision will be guided by Rule 2.. the masters appreciation and practice of good seamanship in normal or any special circumstances.

2/... In well documented cases between commercial ships and pleasure vessels, Courts have often judged the professional master’s licensing and experience to a higher standard when being guided by Rule 2 in determining fault….(especially if there has been a loss of life).

3/... Personally I find this very unfair to the commercial mariner and I believe that we as pleasure boaters need to be judged by the same basic standard of competency.

Do you think that is fair and if not, do you feel a basic standard of competency training is needed for the pleasure boater?

4/.... Since we pleasure boats probably make up less than 1% of the world’s vessel tonnage, we have little representation within IMO, we are not considered a major environmental threat or risk to shore side property or bridges in a collision, so are given the benefit of the doubt and a free pass, unless the yacht is over 300gt on assessing the operator’s competency or even our ability to follow the rules.

That is why the idea of a solo sailor using a NUC signal when not on watch, has never been brought up with IMO. I believe we need to come up with sailor’s solutions to help communicate better with the ships in these “special circumstances”.

5/ As you will see, when we discuss “Safe Speed” we need to appreciate and “interpret” what that means..... not only for ship size, but also yacht size vessels, so as to share our experience in the hopes of having a clearer perspective.
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Old 31-05-2010, 21:07   #117
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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Personally I see few contentious issues here, although I have seen a debate about the meaning of "operational radar." Does that mean the radar is operating or has the potential to be operating? I tend to shut the radar down when the visibility is good and I am under sail, so that I can maintain the batteries. If I am power-driven in good visibility, I often use the opportunity to teach how to operate the radar.
I don't see rule 6 as being a rule per se, but rather suggested considerations. Radar can be useful in good visibility, "more accurate assessment of range" and all that, but certainly you would be well within the expected practices of seamen to shut down your radar when sailing in good vis/daytime/open ocean. I see the description of operational radar meaning fitted, operating and effectively manned.
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Old 31-05-2010, 21:20   #118
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Ladies

While running power driven vessels on the Atlantic ICW for most of 40 years. I have observed many confusing and welcome actions by snailboters.
Hi Ralph, welcome to CF and it is great that you are giving us your commercial perspective, because that is what many cruisers need to understand when ‘interpreting” the rules.

There is a “legally accepted” interpretation of COLREGS and then there is the practical side of "schedules" which professionals need to adjust to, in order to satisfy their employees and keep their jobs.

On the legal interpretation of sail/power status and privileges;

  1. Sails up and drawing but the propeller is not turning under mechanical power… show signals as a Sailing vessel
  2. Sails up and drawing but the propeller is turning under mechanical power… show signals as a Power vessel
  3. Sails up and not drawing (no wind) and the propeller is not turning under mechanical power… you can be considered becalmed and have the right to show NUC signals

My own opinion is that anyone sailing in the confined areas of ICW bridges who has a useable engine...but not on standby... is practicing poor seamanship, when there are other larger vessels around (to put it kindly)

Look forward to your input on “safe speed” Ralph
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Old 31-05-2010, 21:34   #119
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If the engine is on and you could easily use it, by engaging gear, to avoid an accident you are required to do that. Failure to use all available means to avoid and accident is a failure to observe what I consider the prime rule: don't hit another boat. Failure to exercise all available means to avoid collision will garner you part of the blame. These are not rules of right of way but rather a set of rules to prevent problems. All participants are responsible for doing their best to avoid collisions, first by following the rules and finally by exercising good seamanship and using ALL possible alternatives to avoid accidents.
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Old 31-05-2010, 22:29   #120
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However, May I explain some of my attitude;
You're making some dangerous assumptions.

I would certainly turn on the engine when approaching a drawbridge under sail. However, I would not tend to engage the transmission unless I needed it to avoid a collision. I forfeit no privilege under the COLREGS for having the engine on in standby mode, and I find it difficult to believe that a sensible master would assume that "smoke," as you put it, is coming from the propulsion system rather than the charging system. That's just not a rational inference for a professional mariner to make.

Regarding your comments about "attitude," I have to reflect that I'm seeing a lot more attitude here than wisdom. Ladies. Snaiboters [sic]. Rags. There are forums where such attitude might be appreciated, and I'd be happy to recommend them if this is the type of discourse you prefer.
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