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Old 28-05-2010, 18:42   #91
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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I seem to have had more discussions that I care to think about with regard to these two sub-sets of therules.

There is a significant number of folks on another forum who believe that a sailboat with its engines running to charge batteries but with the transmission in neutral is to be regarded as a power-driven vessel. I am not one of those folks.

I called the USCG and emailed the Nautical Institute as well as Transport Canada and an admiralty lawyer, who were all in agreement with that the transmission had to be engaged. Even after posting these responses there are those who still think that whether or not the transmission is engaged is not relevant.
You are kidding me of course. If you have a running engine available, in nutral and ready to help propell your vessel, YOU ARE A POWER BOAT. I could drift in nutral also and claim NUC or Sailboat rights also.

When it's smoking, your NOT sailing.

I may be a bit late here. I'm sure your on different rules but we may need to come back to this one. This same subject came up during my training and it lost. And I belive it has lost in the US courts.
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Old 28-05-2010, 19:15   #92
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You are kidding me of course. If you have a running engine available, in nutral and ready to help propell your vessel, YOU ARE A POWER BOAT. I could drift in nutral also and claim NUC or Sailboat rights also.

When it's smoking, your NOT sailing.

I may be a bit late here. I'm sure your on different rules but we may need to come back to this one. This same subject came up during my training and it lost. And I belive it has lost in the US courts.
No, I am not kidding. I have a consensus from:
  • A Canadian admiralty lawyer
  • The USCG (via a phone call)
  • Transport Canada
  • A Transport Canada instructor
  • Two offlicials from the Nautical Institute in the UK
  • One of the authors of Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road

I can post their comments if needed.

Can you provide your sources? Curious minds want to know.

Jack
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Old 28-05-2010, 19:20   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ralph View Post
You are kidding me of course. If you have a running engine available, in nutral and ready to help propell your vessel, YOU ARE A POWER BOAT. I could drift in nutral also and claim NUC or Sailboat rights also.

When it's smoking, your NOT sailing.

I may be a bit late here. I'm sure your on different rules but we may need to come back to this one. This same subject came up during my training and it lost. And I belive it has lost in the US courts.
I'd like to see the case law on that one.

If I am running a generator and "it's smoking" am I now a power boat?
If you are drifting in neutral without the appropriate day shapes/lights or sails can you claim NUC or sailboat rights?

Fair Winds,
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Old 28-05-2010, 19:21   #94
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This is another resources that might be helpful in our discussions:

Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road

Chris Llana, one of the authors, has been very helpful with my understanding the ColRegs.
Quote:
Chris Llana is a former Coast Guard officer with a B.S. in naval architecture and marine engineering and advanced degrees in marine affairs (MMA) and law (JD). During his tenure as a civilian at Coast Guard Headquarters, he drafted the annexes to the Inland Navigation Rules and wrote other regulations implementing both International and Inland Navigation Rules. Subsequent to that, he worked for Comsat Corporation on policy issues concerning the International Maritime Satellite Organization. He currently writes novels and maintains a web site on the U.S. transition to the ATSC digital TV standard.
Jack
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Old 28-05-2010, 20:16   #95
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Not generator, main engine available for propulsion but in neutral.

No, I can not quote case from a open room discussion over 20 years ago. I will look into it now.

Any of your references been in a collision running a main in neutral and not put it in gear to avoid the incident? Who would NOT put a main in gear to avoid a collision?
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Old 28-05-2010, 20:28   #96
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Jack,

That is an excellent link. Thanks for providing it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ralph View Post
Who would NOT put a main in gear to avoid a collision?
I think you bring up a valid point, but if it's simply a rule 18 application, there should be no reason for a sailboat to need to shift into gear; by the same reasoning a sailboat should not be expected to fire up its engine to become a power-driven vessel whenever it gets into a close-quarters situation with another vessel. However, if a sailboat didn't follow the rule 17 requirements to avoid an in extremis situation, especially if an engine was running and available, then I would expect a larger proportion of the blame to fall on that sailboat.
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Old 28-05-2010, 20:37   #97
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Any of your references been in a collision running a main in neutral and not put it in gear to avoid the incident? Who would NOT put a main in gear to avoid a collision?
The fastest way for me to stop a sail vessel is to heave-to.

If I need to get steerage way, it is probably because I am adrift, While that would make me a NUC (if I showed the right shapes or lights), in light winds I would probably be running the engine with the transmission engaged making me a power-driven vessel.
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Old 29-05-2010, 00:28   #98
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NUC option for solo sailors

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I have always wondered if a solo sailor would not be better rigging NUC signals when he/she is getting some sleep and trusting their luck to the Gods.

Be interesting to see how that would be judged

Quote:
The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. I have trouble believing that sleeping is an exceptional circumstance.
It seems to me that in the definition of NUC 'exceptional circumstances' are tied to an impairment of the vessel to maneuver not to an impairment of the crew to maintain lookout by sight and sound etc..
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Old 29-05-2010, 07:18   #99
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It seems to me that in the definition of NUC 'exceptional circumstances' are tied to an impairment of the vessel to maneuver not to an impairment of the crew to maintain lookout by sight and sound etc..
That is a great way to put it.

Jack
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Old 29-05-2010, 07:56   #100
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Not generator, main engine available for propulsion but in neutral.

No, I can not quote case from a open room discussion over 20 years ago. I will look into it now.

Any of your references been in a collision running a main in neutral and not put it in gear to avoid the incident? Who would NOT put a main in gear to avoid a collision?
I'll leave it to the pros to cite references, but it seems there's two different levels here. If I'm standing on because I believe I'm a sailboat, engine running in neutral (yes I realize that is the big debate point), when I determine that the give way isn't giving way and I attempt to maneuver out of his way, if it helps to avoid collision, I'll put it in gear as part of getting out of the way. But perhaps I'm giving up too early in open waters and starting to move out of the way if I have time to do all this. I'll probably continue to err on this side of it though.

John

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Old 30-05-2010, 09:56   #101
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I asked a friend who with the Office of Safe Boating about enforcing rules like anchor balls and inverted cones. He relied only after an incident that ends up in the judicial system..
I found his response and thought it was worthwhile posting.

Quote:
Compliance to these issues are generally after the fact as you have
described and involve some form of litigation. Enforcement of these
seemingly obscure regulation usually occur after an incident.
BTW - awfully quiet around here. Perhaps Memorial Day weekend.
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Old 31-05-2010, 12:36   #102
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BTW - awfully quiet around here. Perhaps Memorial Day weekend.
I don't want to hijack Pelagic's thread, but should we move on to Rule 6?
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Old 31-05-2010, 13:14   #103
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I don't want to hijack Pelagic's thread, but should we move on to Rule 6?
Quote:
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

The state of visibility;
The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
The manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;
At night, the presence of background light such as from shore lights or from back scatter from her own lights;
The state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;
The draft in relation to the available depth of water.
(b)Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:

The characteristics, efficiency and limitations of the radar equipment;
Any constraints imposed by the radar range scale in use;
The effect on radar detection of the sea state, weather and other sources of interference;
The possibility that small vessels, ice and other floating objects may not be detected by radar at an adequate range;
The number, location and movement of vessels detected by radar;
The more exact assessment of the visibility that may be possible when radar is used to determine the range of vessels or other objects in the vicinity.
Personally I see few contentious issues here, although I have seen a debate about the meaning of "operational radar." Does that mean the radar is operating or has the potential to be operating? I tend to shut the radar down when the visibility is good and I am under sail, so that I can maintain the batteries. If I am power-driven in good visibility, I often use the opportunity to teach how to operate the radar.

Of note: there are no Inland rules re: Rule 6. But there are Canmods to rule 6.
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Old 31-05-2010, 13:46   #104
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Considering that the point is choosing your speed it would seem to me the intent is that if you are using radar you should adjust your speed to the limitations. If you are not using it whether it is on or not would seem irrelevant.
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Old 31-05-2010, 14:23   #105
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You are kidding me of course. If you have a running engine available, in nutral and ready to help propell your vessel, YOU ARE A POWER BOAT. I could drift in nutral also and claim NUC or Sailboat rights also.
"Power boat," even in all caps, is not a Colregs term. The applicable term would be "power-driven vessel." A boat being driven by its sails while using its auxiliary engine to charge but not to propel the boat is not "power-driven."

Availability confuses the argument, and is not mentioned in the Colregs. I always have an engine available at the flick of a switch. This doesn't make me a power-driven vessel.
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