Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-05-2010, 09:14   #31
Moderator
 
nigel1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Boat: Beneteau 473
Posts: 5,184
Rule 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Thanks Nigel... I can see you have read A.N. Cockroff...sorry this part is tedious but it gives us the basis for more relevant sailing discussions.

What do you think about Don's AIS example of transmitting NUC only without showing signals?
Hi Pelagic, yep, Cockrofts book was pretty much bed time reading 20 odd years ago, and still a good book for explaining the Rules.

Don's AIS example is a definite NO. No where in the rules is AIS considered a means of identifying a vessels status.
I have not seen an example of AIS used to indicate a vessel is NUC without her showing lights and shapes, but have seen plenty of instances where ships (usually off shore work boats) use AIS to indicate RAM, without putting up shapes (lights they do show). I think this is because they the watchkeepers cannot be bothered to climb to the monkey island to put up shapes. On my tug, we have a set of RAM shapes constructed from thin steel which are attched to a fold down mast, makes things easier, and not likely to vanish during a blow.
AIS can be a contentious subject. There are report of watchkeepers using it to assess close quarter situations, without reference to radar or visual bearings. Its is also not uncommon to see erroneous information, vessels forgetting to change status is the most common fault, you will see many a ship running a full speed with AIS set to At Anchor.
Call me old fashioned, but I find it disheatening to find so many young watchkeepers failing to keep a proper look out, and over relying on electronos
__________________

__________________
Nigel
Beneteau 473
Manchester, UK
nigel1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 11:06   #32
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restricts maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.
I find this nebulous. I'm sure anyone trolling in coastal waters considers their maneuverability restricted. The study material for Canadian Operators Certification seems to indicate that in Canada anyone commercially fishing should be given consideration and doesn't mention any need for the symbols mentioned elsewhere in the regs. That would fit the earlier mentioned right of nations to supercede the rules for certain vessels I would think. However, I'm not sure it is anything more then an expectation that you will keep clear of them when they are working.
__________________

__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 11:08   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,040
Images: 1
Rule 3(b) and (c)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
[I]

(b)The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.


(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery if fitted, is not being used.

[B]
I seem to have had more discussions that I care to think about with regard to these two sub-sets of therules.

There is a significant number of folks on another forum who believe that a sailboat with its engines running to charge batteries but with the transmission in neutral is to be regarded as a power-driven vessel. I am not one of those folks.

I called the USCG and emailed the Nautical Institute as well as Transport Canada and an admiralty lawyer, who were all in agreement with that the transmission had to be engaged. Even after posting these responses there are those who still think that whether or not the transmission is engaged is not relevant.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 11:20   #34
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,040
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
I find this nebulous. I'm sure anyone trolling in coastal waters considers their maneuverability restricted. The study material for Canadian Operators Certification seems to indicate that in Canada anyone commercially fishing should be given consideration and doesn't mention any need for the symbols mentioned elsewhere in the regs. That would fit the earlier mentioned right of nations to supercede the rules for certain vessels I would think. However, I'm not sure it is anything more then an expectation that you will keep clear of them when they are working.
I have had a commercial trolling vessel alter course while I was sailing between Tofino and Ucluelet. I had been getting ready to avoid him. After I got docked in Ulcluelet, the fish boat came in and the skipper got off and walked over to our boat. I was half expecting that he was annoyed. Quite the opposite - he was excited to see us sailing out there.

The trolling boats do not show the dayshapes or the lights, because the are not restricted in their ability to maneuver.

The PCOC study materials are pretty basic and do not get into the subtleties of ColRegs. The Canadian modifications to ColRegs have nothing that supercedes the fishing lights or dayshapes. The one that stands out is the modification that the dayshapes and lights for constrained by draft may not be shown.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 11:55   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
[I]

Can you be accepted by these rules to be NUC if your anchor is down but not holding?

[COLOR=red]
OK, I don't know much about these rules beyond taking them at face value. But wouldn't this question imply that I am possibly expected to know if YOUR anchor is holding? And is there nothing in all these rules about responsibility to set it properly so it does?
So, what I am trying to figure out is, if I come am in an area where you are anchored, and I have no reason to believe you are dragging (not zipping along across the anchorage...) so I keep sailing. But you do manage to drag in such a way that we collide, somehow before I can effectively sail out of the way (hugely hypothetical, I know). Can you then claim in court that because your anchor didn't hold, you weren't "under command" so the whole thing is entirely my fault?
What if we were both anchored when you dragged into my anchor-swing radius, which then led to me running into you?

Or maybe all this is covered in one we haven't got to yet?
__________________
Mariness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 11:59   #36
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,040
Images: 1
A NUC is underway.

Quote:
The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or
made fast to the shore, or aground.
There is not reference to whether or not the anchor is holding. What day shape / light are you showing?
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 12:06   #37
Registered User
 
YOGAO's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: St. Augustine, FL - an unwilling C.L.O.D.
Boat: Maine Cat 41
Posts: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I seem to have had more discussions that I care to think about with regard to these two sub-sets of therules.

There is a significant number of folks on another forum who believe that a sailboat with its engines running to charge batteries but with the transmission in neutral is to be regarded as a power-driven vessel. I am not one of those folks.

I called the USCG and emailed the Nautical Institute as well as Transport Canada and an admiralty lawyer, who were all in agreement with that the transmission had to be engaged. Even after posting these responses there are those who still think that whether or not the transmission is engaged is not relevant.
Quite correct. The relevant language is "propelling machinery". An engine, in and of itself, is NOT propelling machinery, it is only a portion of it.

Fair Winds,
Mike
__________________
YOGAO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 12:13   #38
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Trick question:

If you're at anchor, you're expected to display anchor lights/shapes; if you're NUC, you're expected to display NUC lights/shapes - but if you display both together what does is mean?
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 12:37   #39
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,040
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Trick question:

If you're at anchor, you're expected to display anchor lights/shapes; if you're NUC, you're expected to display NUC lights/shapes - but if you display both together what does is mean?
If they are in a line - you are aground.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 12:56   #40
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Humingway,
the important part about the fishing definition is : “which restricts maneuverability,” was added to make clear that small vessels such as pleasure craft fishing with a few lines out, that really does not appreciably affect their ability to maneuver are not entitled to the same degree of privilege as net and drag types
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 13:09   #41
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Mariness,

What you read in these “Rules” is actually a summary of years of discussions using hypothetical examples to clarify if that situation falls within the rules.

The anchor dragging scenario was decided in the 1972 convention as likely to be accepted as a NUC situation…. (Meaning you could show the signals and expect the privileges)

If you think of a ship or even a sailboat dragging into a traffic separation scheme with not enough time to start the engine or raise the sail, putting up the NUC signals seems prudent
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 15:54   #42
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
If they are in a line - you are aground.
You're right. But the lights don't need to be in a line.

Not all ships can just fire up the engines - the context of the rules and interpretations thereof likely considered that if a steamer started dragging it could be an hour or more before it had steam. In that time it could move some distance out-of-control. If it takes as much time for you to push the starter as it does to hoist the NUC signal, you might have a hard time convincing a judge that you were really NUC.
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 17:31   #43
Registered User
 
Laidback's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 853
"Application
(a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels."

The above opening salvo to the rules makes it clear that our recreational boats, be they sail or power or otherwise propelled are included in "ALL Vessels". Also includes all navigable rivers that are connected to the high seas.
Question :- if a river's headwaters lie in a great lake (which is navigable by a seagoing vessel)
but for the first part of the river's journey to the sea - the river is very shallow and not navigable -- then it becomes navigable for the remainder of its journey to the high sea - Do Colregs apply to vessels in the great lake ?
__________________
Laidback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 18:05   #44
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
What nobody has brought up where a rowboat fits in yet? I've seen some intense arguments over that one.

John
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2010, 18:08   #45
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Rule 1 The U.S. Inland Rules and the International Rules are mutually exclusive; waters are subject to one or the other, but not both, although in many cases the Rules are the same. The boundary between them is termed a "COLREGS Demarcation Line." These lines are described in Federal Regulations (published later in this chapter), and are shown on all applicable charts. The Demarcation Lines must be studied carefully and clearly understood; there are areas of U.S. waters that would logically be thought of as "inland" - along the northeast Maine coast, in the lower Florida Keys, all of Puget Sound, and others - but which are subject to the International Rules.

Boats.com - Rules and Regulations: Navigational Rules.
__________________

__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LED Lights and ColRegs Weyalan Marine Electronics 11 03-08-2016 09:57
National Versions of ColRegs ? jackdale Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 10 25-05-2010 20:43
Challenge: Interpreting Satellite Imagery MV Challenges 14 10-04-2009 11:39
Colregs Question unbusted67 Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 2 11-12-2008 19:41
<rant on> ColRegs Amgine The Sailor's Confessional 16 13-08-2007 11:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.