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Old 22-06-2010, 23:06   #241
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Rule 12 Discussion Sailing Rules

Does Rule 13 over-ride Rule 12 ?
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Old 22-06-2010, 23:12   #242
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Rule 13 Subsequent alterations of bearings

These "judgment calls" are often the cause of many collisions....good for us to air them out.


  1. At what maximum distance apart between 2 vessels, would the courts interpret it to be considered an overtaking situation?
  2. Vessel A is overtaking B on the Starboard side, then needs to make an alteration to Port to avoid a navigational hazard…..At what distance apart would courts view it more as a crossing situation rather than an overtaking situation?
  3. What is "interaction" between vessels in an overtaking situation?
  4. In narrow channels or traffic lanes are the rules interpreted differently as far as a small vessel impeding an overtaking larger vessel?
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Old 23-06-2010, 03:33   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Does Rule 13 over-ride Rule 12 ?
It has to doesn't it?

Take the example of boat A sailing downwind on port and boat B sailing downwind on starboard. Boat B is overtaking boat A.

Rule 12 requires Boat A to keep clear (in the absence of rule 13)
Rule 13 requires Boat B to keep clear.
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Old 23-06-2010, 10:07   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Does Rule 13 over-ride Rule 12 ?
13(a) clearly requires an overtaking vessel to keep clear. Looking ahead, I would hold that rule 13 trumps rule 18 as well.

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Old 23-06-2010, 17:41   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Looking ahead, I would hold that rule 13 trumps rule 18 as well.

Jack
As well as any other rule in sections 1 and 2:

Quote:
Rule 13
Overtaking.


(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
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Old 23-06-2010, 18:11   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post

  1. At what maximum distance apart between 2 vessels, would the courts interpret it to be considered an overtaking situation?
That's subjective, but I would consider if a vessel is coming up from more than 22.5 degrees abaft my beam but I am able to turn towards that vessel with standard rudder to the reciprocal course and still not reduce the CPA below a safe margin, say 1000 yards then arguably an overtaking condition did not exist.
Quote:

  1. Vessel A is overtaking B on the Starboard side, then needs to make an alteration to Port to avoid a navigational hazard…..At what distance apart would courts view it more as a crossing situation rather than an overtaking situation?
The Rules insist that the overtaking vessel is burdened until she is finally past and clear. Again disputable, but I read that to mean that vessel A would have to open to essentially the point where it would be the start of an anti-collision situation (Cockcroft/Lameijer stage 2) or about 6 miles open ocean; much less in more restricted waters/ heavier traffic/ or between small, slow vessels
Quote:

  1. What is "interaction" between vessels in an overtaking situation?
Are you talking about interaction between ships, like pressure and suction zones? Not really applicable with small yachts
Quote:

  1. In narrow channels or traffic lanes are the rules interpreted differently as far as a small vessel impeding an overtaking larger vessel?
No - smaller shall not impede and the overtaking vessel shall keep out of the way - easy
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Old 29-06-2010, 19:30   #247
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Any skipper who collides with another boat and is adjudged to have been at fault should be sentenced to memorize the colregs. I can't think of a more cruel and unusual punishment.
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Old 08-07-2010, 15:59   #248
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Anchor Sound Rules

I have been waiting to bring up a question about rules 33 & 35. This thread seems to have stalled so I will just bring up the question now and see what the response is.

The 2003 changes to the Colregs deleted the requirement that vessels under 20m carry and use a bell for use in anchoring situations. These vessels are now required to use a whistle if they are not using a bell. The amendments specify a timing of 2min for whistle use but do not indicate a pattern. See below.

Rule 35g specifies a short-long-short whistle pattern that MAY be used with a bell sound.

I would contend that the short-long-short whistle pattern would be acceptable used on its own. It is the only whistle pattern I am aware of indicating anchoring. The lack of a bell sound accompanying it might be confusing, but I think any other pattern without a generally accepted meaning would be even more confusing.

This issue is moot in US inland waters since a bell is still required.
The following link shows Colregs amendments from 2003. The pertinent sections are shown.

http://www.smoothsailing.co.za/intcolregammend.pdf
Amendments to International Collision Regulations
November 2003

7.
RULE 33(a) is amended to read as follows:
(a) A vessel of 12 meters or more in length shall be provided with a whistle, a vessel of 20 meters or more in length shall be provided with a bell in addition to a whistle, and a vessel of 100 meters or more in length shall, in addition, be provided with a gong, the tone and sound of which cannot be confused with that of the bell. The whistle, bell, and gong shall comply with the specifications in Annex III to these Regulations. The bell or gong or both may be replaced by other equipment having the same respective sound characteristics, provided that manual sounding of the required signals shall always be possible.

8.
RULE 35(i) is added as follows, and the old Rule 35(i) and (j) are renumbered as 35(j) and (k), respectively:
(i) A vessel of 12 meters or more but less than 20 meters in length shall not be obliged to give the bell signals prescribed in paragraphs (g) and (h) of this Rule. However, if she does not, she shall make some other efficient sound signal at intervals of not more than 2 minutes.
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Old 08-07-2010, 17:08   #249
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What is your question?
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Old 08-07-2010, 18:18   #250
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Opps

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
What is your question?
Uhhh, right.

Does anyone know of other amendments or rules that would clarify the issue?

Does anyone disagree with my contention and if so why?
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Old 08-07-2010, 21:30   #251
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Well, the rule doesn't preclude vessels under 20 m sounding a bell - it just says they are not obliged to do so. I think the rules give you an option of using whatever is most convenient (and efficient), like cranking the tunes on your upperdeck speakers.
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Old 09-07-2010, 08:02   #252
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OK, you're on a boat less than 20 meters in length, and choose to have both a horn and a bell for use at anchor.

I'm lazy, so my horn will be the auto feature on my VHF/Hailer... Likely an Icom M602, which has programmed this pattern for anchoring:

Quote:
One 5-second blast followed by two 1-second blasts (each separated by 2 seconds) every 120 seconds
Which the manual (page 42) says is for: (Emphasis added)

Quote:
Sailing vessel underway, fishing vessel (underway or anchored), vessel not under command, a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver (underway or at anchor), or a vessel towing or pushing another ahead.
OK, sounds reasonable to me.

Now, what, if any, pattern should the bell be rung in? Interval? Should it be coincident with the sounding of the horn, or offset (so that every minute or so there is some kind of noise)?
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:20   #253
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Anchoring Horn/whistle pattern

The pattern listed in your second quote indicates that it is for sailboats underway, and various vessels with disabilities underway or at anchor.

I am interested in what whistle pattern the COLREGs say should be used by generic vessels under 20m at anchor.

What sound does your hailer make for generic anchoring? Is it a whistle/horn or does it make a bell sound? If it is a whistle/horn, what pattern does it use and does your manual cite any part of the Colregs for this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healer52 View Post
OK, you're on a boat less than 20 meters in length, and choose to have both a horn and a bell for use at anchor.

I'm lazy, so my horn will be the auto feature on my VHF/Hailer... Likely an Icom M602, which has programmed this pattern for anchoring:


Quote:
One 5-second blast followed by two 1-second blasts (each separated by 2 seconds) every 120 seconds

Which the manual (page 42) says is for: (Emphasis added)

Quote:
Sailing vessel underway, fishing vessel (underway or anchored), vessel not under command, a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver (underway or at anchor), or a vessel towing or pushing another ahead.


OK, sounds reasonable to me.

Now, what, if any, pattern should the bell be rung in? Interval? Should it be coincident with the sounding of the horn, or offset (so that every minute or so there is some kind of noise)?
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Old 09-07-2010, 18:51   #254
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Clear as mud, but a vessel at anchor is by definition not able to maneuver freely.
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Old 09-07-2010, 19:38   #255
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It's not practical to use a bell that produces the required tone on a small vessel - that doesn't mean you can't use a smaller bell and let the boat's motion ring it. If you're anchored where there's going to be large vessels transiting through (which is not advised) you should be maintaining a watch and can sound .-. if something is bearing down on you.
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