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Old 07-06-2010, 12:02   #196
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Originally Posted by unbusted67 View Post
What does this mean? What organization? Aren't traffic separation schemes part of the international rules?

What body determines weather or not a vessel can comply with these rules? Who would you apeal to?
The "organization" is the IMO. If a country makes a TSS, they can put it on their own charts, but it doesn't have international 'approval' until the IMO blesses it.

It's the government concerned that makes the determination - in Canada for instance it's the Minister of Transport. They're the same organization that will grant whatever licenses or certifications the vessel will need.
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Old 07-06-2010, 17:57   #197
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I really wish a mod would come in and split this thread up into separate threads, I feel like people coming into this conversation late would probably still like to discuss some of the earlier rules. Is there any way we can do that?

Hi UB67… I was wondering if I had created a monster.

My reasoning behind keeping this as one thread is that the rules all interrelate and you need to “interpret them in their entirety”, so this primary thread becomes a useful resource to see how any given Rule was first discussed.

There is no reason why someone cannot go back to discuss an earlier Rule in this Thread as I imagine a lot of that would happen the further along we got, when the court cases cite a number of Rules in their findings.

But maybe people are getting bored already and perhaps intimidated by the size of this thread.

Happy to go with the majority on this

You can also start your own thread on a particular Rule if you think that is easier.
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Old 07-06-2010, 18:22   #198
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I was thinking we could make a sub forum under Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape
and split each rule into a different thread. I just think it gets confusing when you have a big long thread. Just a thought.
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Old 08-06-2010, 23:39   #199
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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
ColRegs are updated as needed. For example WIGs were added in the past decade.
It would be helpful - please do not abbreviate Colreg terms.

The Abbreviation W I G refers to Wing In Ground WIG craft
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Old 09-06-2010, 11:48   #200
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They should be called WIW wing in water.
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Old 09-06-2010, 19:57   #201
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It's Wing In Ground-effect.
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Old 09-06-2010, 20:15   #202
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Does a vessel have to show the lights and day shapes in order to be considered by law to be NUC or RAM etc?

If a vessel that is RAM and is not showing any of the lights or day shapes or lights and is struck by a power driven vessel who is to blame?

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This rule helps to define the classification of different vessels. These definitions become important when we apply the rules for the interaction which takes place when two different types of vessels meet.

Rule 3

General definitions

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.


Non displacement craft and seaplanes are now considered as vessels

(b)The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.


(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery if fitted, is not being used.


(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restricts maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.


(e) The term "seaplane" includes any aircraft designed to maneuver on the water.


(f) The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.


Can adverse weather conditions be now considered “exceptional circumstances”?


Can you be accepted by these rules to be NUC if your anchor is down but not holding?


Can you be accepted by these rules to be NUC if your sailing vessel is becalmed?


(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.


The term "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

(i) a vessel engaged inlaying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) a vessel engaged in launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

(h) The term "vessel constrained by her draught" means a power-driven vessel which because of her draught in relation to available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.


(i) The word "underway" means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.


Are you underway if you are lying stopped?


(j) The words "length" and "breadth" of a vessel mean her length overall and greatest breadth.


Now switched to metric as an international standard


(k) Vessel shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other.


What if you sight another vessel on your radar screen how doe the rules apply?


(l) The term "restricted visibility" means any condition in which
visibility is restricted by fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorms, sandstorms or any other similar causes.


What other causes have been given and accepted?


(m) The term 'Wing-In-Ground (WIG) craft' means a multimodal craft which, in its main operational mode, flies in close proximity to the surface by utilizing surface-effect action.


This is a new addition to the Rules
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Old 09-06-2010, 21:49   #203
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Splitting This Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by unbusted67 View Post
I was thinking we could make a sub forum under Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape
and split each rule into a different thread. I just think it gets confusing when you have a big long thread. Just a thought.
That sounds like a bunch of little monsters instead of one big one.

Here's another idea, limit the discussion to current rule plus previous 2,3,4,5 whatever concensus wants.
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Old 09-06-2010, 23:44   #204
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Originally Posted by unbusted67 View Post
Does a vessel have to show the lights and day shapes in order to be considered by law to be NUC or RAM etc?

Yes!

If a vessel that is RAM and is not showing any of the lights or day shapes or lights and is struck by a power driven vessel who is to blame?
Probably both

The lights and shape are not optional, they are part of the rules for identifying yourself and if another vessel does not know what these shapes/light mean, then they would be considered unsuitable in thier abilities to stand a proper watch
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Old 09-06-2010, 23:48   #205
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(i) The word "underway" means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.

Are you underway if you are lying stopped?

Underway is different from making way.

Underway means your boat is not attached to the Earth's solid mass generally speaking. Making way means your boat is moving through the water. Your boat can be underway but not making way. These terms are commonly confused.

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(k) Vessel shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other.

What if you sight another vessel on your radar screen how doe the rules apply?

The rules for within sight of each other do not apply until you can visually see each other. Its a whole bunch of rules...

Section/Subpart II - Conduct of Vessels in Sight of One Another
Rule 11 - Application
Rule 12 - Sailing Vessels
Rule 13 - Overtaking
Rule 14 - Head-on Situation
Rule 15 - Crossing Situation
Rule 16 - Action by Give-way Vessel
Rule 17 - Action by Stand-on Vessel
Rule 18 - Responsibilities Between Vessels

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
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Old 09-06-2010, 23:54   #206
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That sounds like a bunch of little monsters instead of one big one.

Here's another idea, limit the discussion to current rule plus previous 2,3,4,5 whatever concensus wants.
I tend to agree as questions like what UB67 just quoted on rule 3 will come up and it always adds clarification to the whole legal interpretation of the Rules, which is the subject here.

Still waiting for someone to tackle the clarifying questions i asked re Rules 9 and 10 since it will come up later in avoidance issues.

No rush but I need participation especially about the sailboat crossing under sail
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:19   #207
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(c) A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.

In order to prevent an accidental Gybe can a vessel under sail with auxiliary engine on standby, be permitted to cross at say 60 degrees instead of 90 degrees under this Rule?
I'm guessing no because:

a) First of all, it seems that the rule would like you to avoid doing this in the first place. you could go round the end.

b) If you are 'obliged' to cross (and I really don't know what that means), you could turn on your engine and conform to the right angles requirement of this rule.

To say "I don't want to avoid crossing by going around the end, and I'm not going to cross at right angles because I'd rather sail on my preferred gybe" seems to be pushing it a bit
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:15   #208
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Re sailing vessel crssing TSS, it must cross at a heading as nearly as practical to 90 degree, no excuse if fitted with engine
I'll not be able to participate much over the next week or so, been on passage last few days, presently weather bound in Kilmore Quay, hope to get going again tomorrow morning
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:16   #209
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I would disagree and guess "yes", because:

a) assuming little difference in speed between the vectors, the track at 60deg will only have the boat in the traffic lane 15% longer;

b) the primary aim of the colregs is the avoidance of collisions, and by reducing the risk of an accidental gybe, while maintaining lookout and having the aux on standby, you're clearly acting to avoid collision in a practicable manner.

Nobody is likely to say "hey - you crossed at the wrong angle" if you safely and sensibly avoid the traffic.
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:17   #210
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Most authorities don't get excited about crossing the traffic lanes at 90 degrees, unless there is a lof of shipping present. The exception is German waters, where a friend was cited and fined.
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