Interpreting ColRegs

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Does this mean you have to reselect land targets to stabilize the picture as you drive away from the previous one?

In pre-GPS integration days you selected a land target, then it calculated set and drift to ground stabilize so the land did not move. It would use that calculation until you decided to stabilize again

What we use to do in the Inside passage to Alaska was to use extended echo trails to show us that the land was moving, then we would re-stabilize.

Today, it is done by GPS fixes so is always recalculating SOG

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Bash,

Technically, one short blast has no meaning for a sailing vessel (unless you want to give Capt Ralph the justification he needs to run you down)

Personally I think the manoeuvring signals should be used by all vessels and wonder what the reasoning is for that restriction in the Rules, but I'll wait until we get to Rule 34 to discuss it.

In Canada an SV is required to have a horn of some description, though I admit I don't know if there is a circumstance requiring the use. Bash's use of it seems sensible at any rate.

[Pelagic]

Most of the court cases where collisions have taken part and Rule 8 is quoted seem to follow these interpretations.

8b… The give way vessel should alter so as to ..”leave no possible doubt to the stand on vessel and if sea room permits in restricted visibility it should be a minimum of 30 degrees and preferable 60 to 90”

8c… We will get into this later but when you have another vessel approaching from the starboard side just aft of the beam you are allowed to turn away from the vessel, that is…. To port in a substantial manner

8f (ii-iii) As others have said, with yachts it is usually in traffic schemes or narrow channel where they misinterpret the rules but as Lodesman reminds us...with all skippers commercial and pleasure…. this reinforces the fact that the Rules must be understood and interpreted in it’s entirety, rather than just remembering a few small parts.

Hope to get more participation in this with examples

[chala]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Discussion point:

Which Radar settings do you prefer to use in conditions of poor visibility for collision avoidance?

Heads up?

Course Up?

North Up?

True Motion?

For radar: Heads up because the display remain unaffected by inaccurate or failure of Heading data.

For layered chart and radar: North Up, just the way I am accustomed to read charts.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Bash

You're making some dangerous assumptions.

I would certainly turn on the engine when approaching a drawbridge under sail. However, I would not tend to engage the transmission unless I needed it to avoid a collision. I forfeit no privilege under the COLREGS for having the engine on in standby mode, and I find it difficult to believe that a sensible master would assume that "smoke," as you put it, is coming from the propulsion system rather than the charging system. That's just not a rational inference for a professional mariner to make.

Regarding your comments about "attitude," I have to reflect that I'm seeing a lot more attitude here than wisdom. Ladies. Snaiboters [sic]. Rags. There are forums where such attitude might be appreciated, and I'd be happy to recommend them if this is the type of discourse you prefer.

Thanks Bash save me writing something unpleasant.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Bash,

Technically, one short blast has no meaning for a sailing vessel (unless you want to give Capt Ralph the justification he needs to run you down)

Personally I think the manoeuvring signals should be used by all vessels and wonder what the reasoning is for that restriction in the Rules, but I'll wait until we get to Rule 34 to discuss it.

I had no idea. But, having just read Rule 34....

I guess it's back to yelling, "Starboard." But that's hard on the pipes at my age.

[Lodesman]

Any vessel can use 5 short. I can see why a sailing vessel is highly unlikely to use 3 short, but have no clue why 1 or 2 short are for power-driven vessels only???

[chala]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Anyone who wants me to spend the night banging on a bell when at anchor in fog is back in the stone age.

I think that if you where caught in thick fog with large shadows passing next to you, you will spend the night banging on a bell. I like sound signals because they are directional, it is possible to figure out where the sound come from what is not possible to achieve with a VHF. I also like flag signals, they allow me to convey my intention without imposing my-self on the airwaves.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I totally agree that they ought to fire the old farts who are in charge of the colregs and start all over again with rules which reflect today's technology and conditions.

Colregs are meant to work all over the world, including the places where just getting a motor is high tech. Rewriting the rules for the technology WE have available wouldn't work for 90-95% of the vessels on the water and most of those boats are out fishing and trading to put food on the table.

[Pelagic]

Thought it might be easier if we combined or discussion of these 2 Rules

Rule 9 Narrow channels.

(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit or the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.

Can you define what the courts would consider a “narrow channel?

(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

This means small craft and sailing vessels are expected to take early action to keep well clear

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel of fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34 (d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

Does a vessel proceeding along a narrow channel have “special rights” in a crossing situation with a smaller vessel?

(e)
(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can only take place if the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34 (c) (i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed by Rule 34 (c) (ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34 (d).

(ii) This rule does not relieve the overtaking boat of her obligation under Rule 13.

(f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of narrow channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34 (e).

(g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel.


Rule 10 Traffic separation schemes.

(a) This rule applies to traffic separation schemes adopted by the organisation and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other Rule:

(b) A vessel using a traffic separation scheme shall:

(i) proceed in the appropriate traffic lane in the general direction of traffic flow for that lane;

(ii) so far as practicable keep clear of a traffic separation line or separation zone;

(iii) normally join or leave a traffic lane at the termination of the lane, but when joining or leaving from either side shall do so at as small an angle to the general direction of traffic flow as practicable.

(c) A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.

In order to prevent an accidental Gybe can a vessel under sail with auxiliary engine on standby, be permitted to cross at say 60 degrees instead of 90 degrees under this Rule?

(d)

(i) Inshore traffic zones shall not normally be used by through traffic which can safely use the appropriate traffic lane within the adjacent traffic separation scheme. However, vessels of less than 20m in length, sailing vessels and vessels engaged in fishing may under all circumstances use inshore traffic zones.

When is it not advisable as a small cruising vessel to go via inshore traffic zones?

(ii) Notwithstanding subparagraph (d) (i), a vessel may use an inshore traffic zone when en route to or from a port, offshore installation or structure, pilot station or any other place situated within the inshore traffic zone, or to avoid immediate danger.

(e) A vessel other than a crossing vessel or a vessel joining or leaving a lane shall not normally enter a separation zone or cross a separation line except:
(i) in cases of emergency to avoid immediate danger.

(ii) to engage in fishing within the separation zone.

(f) A vessel navigating in areas near the terminations of traffic separation schemes shall do so with particular caution.

(g) A vessel shall as far as practicable avoid anchoring in a traffic separation scheme or in areas near its terminations.

(h) A vessel not using a traffic separation scheme shall avoid it by as wide a margin as practicable.

(i) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any vessel following a traffic lane.

(j) A vessel of less than 20m in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

Are large vessels following a traffic separation lane considered privileged?

(k) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre when engaged in an operation for the maintenance of safety of navigation in a traffic separation scheme is exempted from complying with this rule to the extent necessary to carry out the operation.

(l) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre when engaged in an operation for the laying, servicing or picking up of a submarine cable, within a traffic separation scheme, is exempted from complying with this Rule to the extent necessary to carry out the operation.

What is the key difference between Rule 9 and Rule 10?

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Colregs are meant to work all over the world, including the places where just getting a motor is high tech. Rewriting the rules for the technology WE have available wouldn't work for 90-95% of the vessels on the water and most of those boats are out fishing and trading to put food on the table.

ColRegs are updated as needed. For example WIGs were added in the past decade.

[spinwing]

In rule 9 if a privileged vessel has to give way it is probably standing into danger, i.e. grounding; however, in rule 10 there is usually adequate water outside the ‘artificial’ lane.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by spinwing

In rule 9 if a privileged vessel has to give way it is probably standing into danger, i.e. grounding; however, in rule 10 there is usually adequate water outside the ‘artificial’ lane.

Sometimes, but not always. Traffic lanes are often dredged and/or cleared to a specific depth, that may not be guaranteed beyond the margins. You should consider a traffic lane as a virtual narrow channel when considering whether or not you're impeding a vessel that is following a lane.

[unbusted67]

I really wish a mod would come in and split this thread up into separate threads, I feel like people coming into this conversation late would probably still like to discuss some of the earlier rules. Is there any way we can do that?

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

PART A. GENERAL

With amendments adopted from November 1995

Rule 1

(d) Traffic separation schemes may be adopted by the Organization for the purpose of these rules.

What does this mean? What organization? Aren't traffic separation schemes part of the international rules?

Originally Posted by Pelagic

(e) Whenever the Government concerned shall have determined that a vessel of special construction or purpose cannot comply fully with the provision of any of these rules with respect to the number, position, range or arc of visibility of lights or shapes, as well as to the disposition and characteristics of sound-signaling appliances, without interfering with the special function of the vessel, such vessel shall comply with such other provisions in regard to the number, position, range or arc of visibility of lights or shapes, as well as to the disposition and characteristics of sound-signaling appliances, as her Government shall have determined to be the closest possible compliance with these rules in respect to that vessel.

What body determines weather or not a vessel can comply with these rules? Who would you apeal to?