Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-06-2010, 19:47   #181
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Does this mean you have to reselect land targets to stabilize the picture as you drive away from the previous one?
In pre-GPS integration days you selected a land target, then it calculated set and drift to ground stabilize so the land did not move. It would use that calculation until you decided to stabilize again

What we use to do in the Inside passage to Alaska was to use extended echo trails to show us that the land was moving, then we would re-stabilize.

Today, it is done by GPS fixes so is always recalculating SOG
__________________

__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 20:15   #182
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Bash,

Technically, one short blast has no meaning for a sailing vessel (unless you want to give Capt Ralph the justification he needs to run you down)

Personally I think the manoeuvring signals should be used by all vessels and wonder what the reasoning is for that restriction in the Rules, but I'll wait until we get to Rule 34 to discuss it.
In Canada an SV is required to have a horn of some description, though I admit I don't know if there is a circumstance requiring the use. Bash's use of it seems sensible at any rate.
__________________

__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 20:20   #183
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,894
Most of the court cases where collisions have taken part and Rule 8 is quoted seem to follow these interpretations.

8b… The give way vessel should alter so as to ..”leave no possible doubt to the stand on vessel and if sea room permits in restricted visibility it should be a minimum of 30 degrees and preferable 60 to 90”

8c… We will get into this later but when you have another vessel approaching from the starboard side just aft of the beam you are allowed to turn away from the vessel, that is…. To port in a substantial manner

8f (ii-iii) As others have said, with yachts it is usually in traffic schemes or narrow channel where they misinterpret the rules but as Lodesman reminds us...with all skippers commercial and pleasure…. this reinforces the fact that the Rules must be understood and interpreted in it’s entirety, rather than just remembering a few small parts.

Hope to get more participation in this with examples
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 09:31   #184
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post

Discussion point:

Which Radar settings do you prefer to use in conditions of poor visibility for collision avoidance?

Heads up?

Course Up?


North Up?


True Motion?
For radar: Heads up because the display remain unaffected by inaccurate or failure of Heading data.

For layered chart and radar: North Up, just the way I am accustomed to read charts.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 09:51   #185
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
You're making some dangerous assumptions.

I would certainly turn on the engine when approaching a drawbridge under sail. However, I would not tend to engage the transmission unless I needed it to avoid a collision. I forfeit no privilege under the COLREGS for having the engine on in standby mode, and I find it difficult to believe that a sensible master would assume that "smoke," as you put it, is coming from the propulsion system rather than the charging system. That's just not a rational inference for a professional mariner to make.

Regarding your comments about "attitude," I have to reflect that I'm seeing a lot more attitude here than wisdom. Ladies. Snaiboters [sic]. Rags. There are forums where such attitude might be appreciated, and I'd be happy to recommend them if this is the type of discourse you prefer.
Thanks Bash save me writing something unpleasant.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 12:19   #186
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Bash,

Technically, one short blast has no meaning for a sailing vessel (unless you want to give Capt Ralph the justification he needs to run you down)

Personally I think the manoeuvring signals should be used by all vessels and wonder what the reasoning is for that restriction in the Rules, but I'll wait until we get to Rule 34 to discuss it.
I had no idea. But, having just read Rule 34....

I guess it's back to yelling, "Starboard." But that's hard on the pipes at my age.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 17:54   #187
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,636
Any vessel can use 5 short. I can see why a sailing vessel is highly unlikely to use 3 short, but have no clue why 1 or 2 short are for power-driven vessels only???
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2010, 21:18   #188
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Anyone who wants me to spend the night banging on a bell when at anchor in fog is back in the stone age.
I think that if you where caught in thick fog with large shadows passing next to you, you will spend the night banging on a bell. I like sound signals because they are directional, it is possible to figure out where the sound come from what is not possible to achieve with a VHF. I also like flag signals, they allow me to convey my intention without imposing my-self on the airwaves.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2010, 00:59   #189
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,628
Today's technology

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I totally agree that they ought to fire the old farts who are in charge of the colregs and start all over again with rules which reflect today's technology and conditions.
Colregs are meant to work all over the world, including the places where just getting a motor is high tech. Rewriting the rules for the technology WE have available wouldn't work for 90-95% of the vessels on the water and most of those boats are out fishing and trading to put food on the table.
__________________
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2010, 08:16   #190
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,894
Rules 9 and 10

Thought it might be easier if we combined or discussion of these 2 Rules

Rule 9 Narrow channels.

(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit or the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.

Can you define what the courts would consider a “narrow channel?

(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.


This means small craft and sailing vessels are expected to take early action to keep well clear


(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.


(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel of fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34 (d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.


Does a vessel proceeding along a narrow channel have “special rights” in a crossing situation with a smaller vessel?


(e)

(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can only take place if the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34 (c) (i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed by Rule 34 (c) (ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34 (d).

(ii) This rule does not relieve the overtaking boat of her obligation under Rule 13.


(f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of narrow channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34 (e).


(g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel
.


Rule 10 Traffic separation schemes
.


(a) This rule applies to traffic separation schemes adopted by the organisation and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other Rule:

(b) A vessel using a traffic separation scheme shall:

(i) proceed in the appropriate traffic lane in the general direction of traffic flow for that lane;


(ii) so far as practicable keep clear of a traffic separation line or separation zone;


(iii) normally join or leave a traffic lane at the termination of the lane, but when joining or leaving from either side shall do so at as small an angle to the general direction of traffic flow as practicable.


(c) A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.


In order to prevent an accidental Gybe can a vessel under sail with auxiliary engine on standby, be permitted to cross at say 60 degrees instead of 90 degrees under this Rule?


(d)


(i) Inshore traffic zones shall not normally be used by through traffic which can safely use the appropriate traffic lane within the adjacent traffic separation scheme. However, vessels of less than 20m in length, sailing vessels and vessels engaged in fishing may under all circumstances use inshore traffic zones.


When is it not advisable as a small cruising vessel to go via inshore traffic zones?


(ii) Notwithstanding subparagraph (d) (i), a vessel may use an inshore traffic zone when en route to or from a port, offshore installation or structure, pilot station or any other place situated within the inshore traffic zone, or to avoid immediate danger.


(e) A vessel other than a crossing vessel or a vessel joining or leaving a lane shall not normally enter a separation zone or cross a separation line except:

(i) in cases of emergency to avoid immediate danger.

(ii) to engage in fishing within the separation zone.


(f) A vessel navigating in areas near the terminations of traffic separation schemes shall do so with particular caution.


(g) A vessel shall as far as practicable avoid anchoring in a traffic separation scheme or in areas near its terminations.


(h) A vessel not using a traffic separation scheme shall avoid it by as wide a margin as practicable.


(i) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any vessel following a traffic lane.


(j) A vessel of less than 20m in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.


Are large vessels following a traffic separation lane considered privileged?


(k) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre when engaged in an operation for the maintenance of safety of navigation in a traffic separation scheme is exempted from complying with this rule to the extent necessary to carry out the operation.


(l) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre when engaged in an operation for the laying, servicing or picking up of a submarine cable, within a traffic separation scheme, is exempted from complying with this Rule to the extent necessary to carry out the operation.

What is the key difference between Rule 9 and Rule 10?
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2010, 09:24   #191
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Colregs are meant to work all over the world, including the places where just getting a motor is high tech. Rewriting the rules for the technology WE have available wouldn't work for 90-95% of the vessels on the water and most of those boats are out fishing and trading to put food on the table.
ColRegs are updated as needed. For example WIGs were added in the past decade.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2010, 15:09   #192
Registered User
 
spinwing's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Whitby, ON
Boat: '88 Hunter Legend 35
Posts: 14
Send a message via Skype™ to spinwing
9 vs 10

In rule 9 if a privileged vessel has to give way it is probably standing into danger, i.e. grounding; however, in rule 10 there is usually adequate water outside the ‘artificial’ lane.
__________________
Please sign your organ donor card.
Thanks
David
spinwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2010, 16:53   #193
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by spinwing View Post
In rule 9 if a privileged vessel has to give way it is probably standing into danger, i.e. grounding; however, in rule 10 there is usually adequate water outside the ‘artificial’ lane.
Sometimes, but not always. Traffic lanes are often dredged and/or cleared to a specific depth, that may not be guaranteed beyond the margins. You should consider a traffic lane as a virtual narrow channel when considering whether or not you're impeding a vessel that is following a lane.
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 07:16   #194
Senior Cruiser
 
unbusted67's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Islesboro, ME
Boat: Looking for a new boat
Posts: 2,197
Images: 24
I really wish a mod would come in and split this thread up into separate threads, I feel like people coming into this conversation late would probably still like to discuss some of the earlier rules. Is there any way we can do that?
__________________
unbusted67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 07:18   #195
Senior Cruiser
 
unbusted67's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Islesboro, ME
Boat: Looking for a new boat
Posts: 2,197
Images: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
PART A. GENERAL
With amendments adopted from November 1995
Rule 1

(d) Traffic separation schemes may be adopted by the Organization for the purpose of these rules.
What does this mean? What organization? Aren't traffic separation schemes part of the international rules?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
(e) Whenever the Government concerned shall have determined that a vessel of special construction or purpose cannot comply fully with the provision of any of these rules with respect to the number, position, range or arc of visibility of lights or shapes, as well as to the disposition and characteristics of sound-signaling appliances, without interfering with the special function of the vessel, such vessel shall comply with such other provisions in regard to the number, position, range or arc of visibility of lights or shapes, as well as to the disposition and characteristics of sound-signaling appliances, as her Government shall have determined to be the closest possible compliance with these rules in respect to that vessel.
What body determines weather or not a vessel can comply with these rules? Who would you apeal to?
__________________

__________________
unbusted67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LED Lights and ColRegs Weyalan Marine Electronics 11 03-08-2016 09:57
National Versions of ColRegs ? jackdale Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 10 25-05-2010 20:43
Challenge: Interpreting Satellite Imagery MV Challenges 14 10-04-2009 11:39
Colregs Question unbusted67 Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 2 11-12-2008 19:41
<rant on> ColRegs Amgine The Sailor's Confessional 16 13-08-2007 11:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.