Impounded boats in Mexico

[dohenyboy]

With all due respect, cruising or visiting a foreign country, even for a period of years, does not qualify a person to give an opinion as to such matters. Now, if you would have said that you had received your graduate degree from a Mexican university, some of your closest friends were Mexican legislators, you had run several substantial businesses in Mexico, you spoke fluent Spanish with a chilango accent, then i would give credence to your statements regarding transacting business in Mexico. Unfortunately for a number of state governors arrested of late for corruption, things are not as they might seem to a casual visitor.
Just for one example, you can see what the old grey lady has to say about it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/wo...nomy.html?_r=0

[Trim50]

In response to my request for information for vessels preparing for Pacific Puddle Jump. I requested specific details on how to deal with the "Precautionary Embargo"

This is the response from:
Ulises Osvaldo Tomas Canseco <ulises.tomas@sat.gob.mx>

For:
Luis Lara, a political appointee, the one at AGACE who ordered the audits:
Lic. Luis Lara
Administrador General de Auditoria de Comercio Exterior (AGACE)

I hereby mention to you that one part of Mexican Government’s comprehensive management is to provide legal safety to foreigners entering our country, that is why free traffic of merchandise that have been in compliance with legal requirements for its entry and stay is always favored, so that foreign tourism feels comfortable and safe while doing leisure activities offered in Mexican territory.

At the same time, Mexican Government through SAT is compelled to verify compliance with tax and customs obligations, among them, displaying of documents covering the legal possession, stay, holding and importation of goods entered into national territory.

Therefore, the legal stay and possession of more than 1,600 vessels in national territory was carried out. To that end, due to the nature of verifications carried out and heading to safety protocols that must be followed for this kind of actions, the Marina Armada de México (Mexico’s Navy), corresponding authority in this area, took part of the operation.

Under this scenario, Mexican customs regulations establish that holding, transportation or handling of foreign goods must rely at all time upon the corresponding entry document (temporary import permit which allows the identification of the corresponding vessel (1)), and provides that, should this situation not be proved, the authority is compelled to impound such goods.

I’m glad to inform you that, during the verification carried out in 2013, legal stay and possession of more than 1,300 vessels entered into Mexico were proved; such vessels were certainly not impounded. As you can see, vessels complying with legal requirements to enter our country have no problem at all. That’s why, in order to guide foreign visitors and offer them as much ease as possible, always in compliance with the law, I inform you that this kind of processes (2) can be done:

a) In Mexican Consulates located in Chicago, Illinois; Austin, Dallas, and Houston, Texas; Los Angeles, San Bernardino, and Sacramento, California; Albuquerque, New Mexico; Denver, Colorado; and Phoenix, Arizona, in the United States of America up to 6 months before entry into Mexican territory.

b) Additionally, you can also do the process through internet on the following url:


https://www.banjercito.com.mx/regist...turaOpcionl.do

I also inform you that, under Mexican port regulations, touristic marinas are compelled to comply with the requirements established in customs provisions, among them, to have customs document proving legal possession, stay, holding and importation of vessels under their custody.

In this sense, regarding the more than 300 vessels left, touristic marinas did not provide to the authority the documentation proving legal stay and possession of such goods, which is why the authority had to impound such goods. Nevertheless, this same authority granted a period to correct this omission; therefore, should the right documentation proving vessels’ legal stay and possession be presented, the corresponding ruling shall be issued in strict compliance with the law and so the vessels will be released.

In most of the 1300 verified vessels which had no problem and were certainly not impounded, neither the owner nor any other person was on board; however, touristic marinas, following Mexican port and customs regulations, provided documentation proving legal entry into the country of such vessels. Through provided documentation, auditors were able to identify data corresponding to those 1300 vessels. From this it can be deduced that auditors are able to identify vessel data.

As it can be seen, when touristic marinas comply with regulations and provide to the authority all documents in order, whether owners are present or not, vessel will not have any problem.

In this sense, I mention to you that the reason why around 300 vessels were precautionary impounded was because, regarding those vessels, touristic marinas did not provide any documentation proving legal entry or it was not possible to relate the provided documentation with the corresponding vessel.

Therefore, the authority granted a period so that documentation putting this omission in order was presented. Accordingly, for every case where the right documentation proving legal entry of such vessels was presented, the corresponding ruling shall be issued in strict compliance with the law and so the vessels will be released.

Best regards

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Trim50

In response to my request for information for vessels preparing for Pacific Puddle Jump. I requested specific details on how to deal with the "Precautionary Embargo"

This is the response from:
Ulises Osvaldo Tomas Canseco <ulises.tomas@sat.gob.mx>

For:
Luis Lara, a political appointee, the one at AGACE who ordered the audits:
Lic. Luis Lara
Administrador General de Auditoria de Comercio Exterior (AGACE)

I hereby mention to you that one part of Mexican Government’s comprehensive management is to provide legal safety to foreigners entering our country, that is why free traffic of merchandise that have been in compliance with legal requirements for its entry and stay is always favored, so that foreign tourism feels comfortable and safe while doing leisure activities offered in Mexican territory.

At the same time, Mexican Government through SAT is compelled to verify compliance with tax and customs obligations, among them, displaying of documents covering the legal possession, stay, holding and importation of goods entered into national territory.

Therefore, the legal stay and possession of more than 1,600 vessels in national territory was carried out. To that end, due to the nature of verifications carried out and heading to safety protocols that must be followed for this kind of actions, the Marina Armada de México (Mexico’s Navy), corresponding authority in this area, took part of the operation.

Under this scenario, Mexican customs regulations establish that holding, transportation or handling of foreign goods must rely at all time upon the corresponding entry document (temporary import permit which allows the identification of the corresponding vessel (1)), and provides that, should this situation not be proved, the authority is compelled to impound such goods.

I’m glad to inform you that, during the verification carried out in 2013, legal stay and possession of more than 1,300 vessels entered into Mexico were proved; such vessels were certainly not impounded. As you can see, vessels complying with legal requirements to enter our country have no problem at all. That’s why, in order to guide foreign visitors and offer them as much ease as possible, always in compliance with the law, I inform you that this kind of processes (2) can be done:

a) In Mexican Consulates located in Chicago, Illinois; Austin, Dallas, and Houston, Texas; Los Angeles, San Bernardino, and Sacramento, California; Albuquerque, New Mexico; Denver, Colorado; and Phoenix, Arizona, in the United States of America up to 6 months before entry into Mexican territory.

b) Additionally, you can also do the process through internet on the following url:


https://www.banjercito.com.mx/regist...turaOpcionl.do

I also inform you that, under Mexican port regulations, touristic marinas are compelled to comply with the requirements established in customs provisions, among them, to have customs document proving legal possession, stay, holding and importation of vessels under their custody.

In this sense, regarding the more than 300 vessels left, touristic marinas did not provide to the authority the documentation proving legal stay and possession of such goods, which is why the authority had to impound such goods. Nevertheless, this same authority granted a period to correct this omission; therefore, should the right documentation proving vessels’ legal stay and possession be presented, the corresponding ruling shall be issued in strict compliance with the law and so the vessels will be released.

In most of the 1300 verified vessels which had no problem and were certainly not impounded, neither the owner nor any other person was on board; however, touristic marinas, following Mexican port and customs regulations, provided documentation proving legal entry into the country of such vessels. Through provided documentation, auditors were able to identify data corresponding to those 1300 vessels. From this it can be deduced that auditors are able to identify vessel data.

As it can be seen, when touristic marinas comply with regulations and provide to the authority all documents in order, whether owners are present or not, vessel will not have any problem.

In this sense, I mention to you that the reason why around 300 vessels were precautionary impounded was because, regarding those vessels, touristic marinas did not provide any documentation proving legal entry or it was not possible to relate the provided documentation with the corresponding vessel.

Therefore, the authority granted a period so that documentation putting this omission in order was presented. Accordingly, for every case where the right documentation proving legal entry of such vessels was presented, the corresponding ruling shall be issued in strict compliance with the law and so the vessels will be released.

Best regards

Sounds pretty reasonable.. Portugal/Spain.. your boat would have been chained to the dock and you'd have 30 days to present the required documents before the court..

[Celestialsailor]

Ok...This just in.
..

I just attended a meeting held for the fleet here in La Paz by one of the Harbor Managers who met with Government officials as to what happened and what is going on with issues regarding TIP's and the Impounded Vessels that were involved and what we can expect in the future.
AGACE was created by the new Government here to oversee the auditing of vessels that have entered Mexico. In doing this job, they showed up with up to 40 auditors backed by the military and yes, with weapons. So here are some statements that were stated
-AGACE was unaware about boats built before 1972 not having HIN's. So the 12 Marinas they have visited thus far had been temporarily impounded with 10 days to comply.
-This error was soon realized and in one Marina, out of the 16 boats temporarily impounded in Cabo, all but 4 were released. Out of those, 2 had no TIP, 1 was abandoned and the other, the owner could not get down to clear things up yet.
-Another problem was that Marinas collecting copies of our TIP's and
documentations, did not. So when owners were not absent, there was no way of confirming ownership.
-For some reason owners of boats had only copies of their paperwork which was not acceptable.
-AGACE has gone into the huddle to try and untangle the mess before they proceed with any new audits.
-AGACE has realized that the old 20 TIP's are still valid and those boats that were temporarily impounded because of them have been released.
-It is estimated that out of the 338 vessels that were affected, about 10% of them had TIP and documentation problems.
-Penalty for non-compliance can range from 4000 peso's to having the vessel confiscated.
-AGACE is coming up with new procedures of inspection.
-It was apparent that the recent media around the world had a great effect and then Mexican government did not want that kind of press.
-There was a question about the sticker that comes with the TIP that asks you to sick it on your rear view mirror. It was stated not to worry about it but do not throw it away as it is needed to exit the country with your boat and would generate tons of needless paperwork otherwise.

On a personal note...all the talk about the Mexican officials having personal vendettas from folks posting negative opinions on forums was BS. The new administration wanted to be sure that no boat smuggling was taking place and to AGACE, it looked like it to them at first due to there lack of initial knowledge of what to look for. The same goes with the others posting about this was nothing but a shake down. It wasn't. Can you imagine the cost of flying 40 AGACE employees to various Marinas and putting them up at hotels? All for a $50 TIP?
Everything is getting ironed out now and this issue will calm down from the roar it has become to just another education of how to sail legally into Mexico.
So there you have it. I got all these points from a Marina official that was at the official meeting with government officials. Not someone who knew someone living under tarps with there opinions.

[Svdestiny]

Thank you Celestialsailor!

[TacomaSailor]

Almost every boat entering Western Mexico cruising waters from the US comes thru San Diego. There is a large consulate here that provides almost every document needed for Mexican cruising

EXCEPT

The TIP

I wonder why the one location that could deal with almost every boat is not allowed to do so?

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

Almost every boat entering Western Mexico cruising waters from the US comes thru San Diego. There is a large consulate here that provides almost every document needed for Mexican cruising

EXCEPT

The TIP

I wonder why the one location that could deal with almost every boat is not allowed to do so?

I received my TIP via USPS. I was astonished when I filled out the forum online on a Monday and received it on the following Thursday..From Mexico! The mail within California isn't that fast! It was really simple to do and cost me $50. I was told ahead of time, when checking into the first port (in my case, Ensenada) that I could get it there while getting my 6 month visa and clearance. But was warned it was a multi-hour task to do so. I'm glad I listened because cruiser after cruiser came into Ensenada at the Marina I was at and they told me it was a long ordeal.

[Journeyman]

CelestialSailor,

I too applied and received a TIP promptly in the mail, however:

1) at step #3 in the online application I was asked to enter the make (marca) of the vessel by choosing from a fixed list of about 20 manufacturers, only one of which was a sailboat (Hunter). There was no option to choose "other" or enter the actual mfg of my boat. And I could not proceed further without choosing something from the list. So I choose "Avon". I was then allowed to advance. The TIP they rushed to me in the mail lists "Avon" as the mfg of my boat.

This was in October. In December, I went back to the site and started an application again to see if that was a fluke. Nope, again at step 3 the same fixed list of arbitrary boat names forced you to select one, or not proceed in the application.

I very carefully took a screen shot of each step as I proceeded since I may have to defend myself with the authorities.

What was your experience at step 3?

2) When the TIP arrived in the mail it was obvious that just having your very official looking TIP document in hand .... meant nothing. This is because the fine print on the back said you must sign on the back to promise you will not leave your boat in Mexico when you return to the US (presumably that means when you permanently leave Mexico) and send them a copy of the signed promise.

Furthermore, it said that the TIP was not valid until copies of documents showing legal ownership, and my passport were emailed to their website. I immediately emailed copies of all three documents to the specified address.

They responded in barely intelligible English saying I needed to prove ownership. I replied the USCG documentation certificate I sent did that. They replied cryptically "you must send one readable document showing the requested 3 documents. I replied "I have sent you all three, they are attached".

I then received an "invalid email" notice for their email address. Twice, then three times. I went back a month later and still their itvbanjercito address was still broken.

I have a complete record of these email exchanges ready to show the authorities if they ever get around to telling me why I am impounded.

My point is to recommend that no one should use their online TIP application process, based on my experience. And that being in possession of a TIP does not mean that it is valid.

Has anyone else had this experience?

[TacomaSailor]

"I'm glad I listened because cruiser after cruiser came into Ensenada at the Marina I was at and they told me it was a long ordeal."

A cruiser friend just went thru the process in Ensenada the week after Christmas 2013. Here is the note he sent me:

"We checked in in Ensenada. It was very smooth, took less than 2 hours. Everything is in one building now with window for the different organizations in the same room. You just go from one window to the next. They even have the bank there."

They have never been to Mexico before and were a little worried about the checkin process.

[TJ D]

Hi Everybody,

I've been keeping from commenting on this matter, but feel like it's time to offer a little bit of clarity from on the scene.

I was at the LaCruz marina (and also happened to be at the Nuevo Vallarta marina later in the day, where inspections went until after midnight) while the inspections were conducted by AGACE, and I can say unequivocally that it was unlike anything I've ever witnessed in 12 years of living aboard and cruising on the west coast of Mexico. Teams of very serious agents were accompanied by 4-6 heavily armed marines while checking papers. While a show of force is common in Mexico, this kind of thing has to this point been rarely, if ever, witnessed in a tourist marina, and it was very intimidating.

While we all recognize and have no quarrel with the fact that Mexico has the right to verify the compliance of boats visiting their country, the harsh and arbitrary way that this was carried out, along with the subsequent embargoes issued was far beyond what any of us have witnessed.

There are many cases where boats which had NO violations were impounded. One acquaintance of ours was interrogated briefly in rapid fire Spanish, and had to ask for the official to repeat himself, due to the cruiser, while having some knowledge of Spanish, was unable to understand all the legal language. He just really wasn't sure what it was about. How many cruisers could? 10% at best?

At this point, the official simply photographed the boat, took down the number, and left. A week later, this unfortunate soul (who was about to begin his winter cruising season) learned that he was prohibited from leaving the dock for a period of up to 4 months. He was in possession of all of his paperwork at the time of the AGACE raid.

Stories like this can be found all over Mexico, and I would like to assure all the naysayers that most of these folks did nothing wrong.

Regarding the TIP's, if anyone has ever filled out the application online, you will know that they do not have categories for every brand of boat. My boat is custom, built in South Africa. It doesn't have a manufacturer, nor does it have a HIN. If my boat had been impounded (fortunately, I was hauled out during the raid, and didn't get boarded), would it have been my fault? Should one only cruise Mexico on a production boat these days? So it would seem.

Here's the bottom line. Nobody has any quarrel with the action that was taken in general. However, the incompetence and heavy-handedness is really way over the top, and has many of us rethinking our opinion of not the country and its people, but the officials in the employ of the government. To paraphrase Richard Spindler, who has been Mexico boating's biggest friend for decades, 'If one can't feel safe about the security of one's assets, the place just suddenly got a whole lot scarier'

Hyperbole? Perhaps. But, when it's your boat which is not allowed to leave her slip, even though you have all the documents, I understand the sentiment.

For our part, we are happy to be in Panama! We coincidentally left Mexico a couple of days after the raids, and if it were me, I would likely not be showing up again with my HIN-less boat again for a while. Too bad, as the place has really been a delight.

I second all who say that corruption and mordida/bribery has nothing to do with this. There hasn't even been a whisper of such things.

Good sailing to all, and I hope for those of you who are in Mexico, that things straighten out soon, particularly for those many law-abiding folks who have been swept up in this. For those of you who are not there and do not really know that of which you speak, I would like to respectfully ask for some restraint. Some of what has been written here is quite offputting and helpful to nobody. It could very well have been you dealing with this very dauntiing problem.

TJ

[bazzer]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Hi Everybody,

I've been keeping from commenting on this matter, but feel like it's time to offer a little bit of clarity from on the scene.

I was at the LaCruz marina (and also happened to be at the Nuevo Vallarta marina later in the day, where inspections went until after midnight) while the inspections were conducted by AGACE, and I can say unequivocally that it was unlike anything I've ever witnessed in 12 years of living aboard and cruising on the west coast of Mexico. Teams of very serious agents were accompanied by 4-6 heavily armed marines while checking papers. While a show of force is common in Mexico, this kind of thing has to this point been rarely, if ever, witnessed in a tourist marina, and it was very intimidating.

While we all recognize and have no quarrel with the fact that Mexico has the right to verify the compliance of boats visiting their country, the harsh and arbitrary way that this was carried out, along with the subsequent embargoes issued was far beyond what any of us have witnessed.

There are many cases where boats which had NO violations were impounded. One acquaintance of ours was interrogated briefly in rapid fire Spanish, and had to ask for the official to repeat himself, due to the cruiser, while having some knowledge of Spanish, was unable to understand all the legal language. He just really wasn't sure what it was about. How many cruisers could? 10% at best?

At this point, the official simply photographed the boat, took down the number, and left. A week later, this unfortunate soul (who was about to begin his winter cruising season) learned that he was prohibited from leaving the dock for a period of up to 4 months. He was in possession of all of his paperwork at the time of the AGACE raid.

Stories like this can be found all over Mexico, and I would like to assure all the naysayers that most of these folks did nothing wrong.

Regarding the TIP's, if anyone has ever filled out the application online, you will know that they do not have categories for every brand of boat. My boat is custom, built in South Africa. It doesn't have a manufacturer, nor does it have a HIN. If my boat had been impounded (fortunately, I was hauled out during the raid, and didn't get boarded), would it have been my fault? Should one only cruise Mexico on a production boat these days? So it would seem.

Here's the bottom line. Nobody has any quarrel with the action that was taken in general. However, the incompetence and heavy-handedness is really way over the top, and has many of us rethinking our opinion of not the country and its people, but the officials in the employ of the government. To paraphrase Richard Spindler, who has been Mexico boating's biggest friend for decades, 'If one can't feel safe about the security of one's assets, the place just suddenly got a whole lot scarier'

Hyperbole? Perhaps. But, when it's your boat which is not allowed to leave her slip, even though you have all the documents, I understand the sentiment.

For our part, we are happy to be in Panama! We coincidentally left Mexico a couple of days after the raids, and if it were me, I would likely not be showing up again with my HIN-less boat again for a while. Too bad, as the place has really been a delight.

I second all who say that corruption and mordida/bribery has nothing to do with this. There hasn't even been a whisper of such things.

Good sailing to all, and I hope for those of you who are in Mexico, that things straighten out soon, particularly for those many law-abiding folks who have been swept up in this. For those of you who are not there and do not really know that of which you speak, I would like to respectfully ask for some restraint. Some of what has been written here is quite offputting and helpful to nobody. It could very well have been you dealing with this very dauntiing problem.

TJ

If your boat was one of those checked, how come it was not impounded if you have no HIN and therefore no TIP?
For anyone to leave their home port and having applied for the TIP through the mail and arrive in Mexico without it is plain stupid. It was easy to get one on arrival here.
The email published above explains what the agents were looking for. Here in La Paz Marina they will not let you dock without showing all the original docs that are required. They have to show copies to e agent as explained in the email. Did the offending marinas have those? When we docked in Cabo we did not have to show or prove we had a TIP. So maybe that explains why boats were impounded there. According to the marina office here they are liable to fines if they don't keep copies on file.
Nearly all of this thread is based on personal opinion and Hearsay, and I would ignore most of it and make a copy of the email and keep it with you original boat docs.
Remember to get a Zarpa when you are leaving Mexico as most other countries will want to see that when you arrive

[Dos Gatos]

"Teams of very serious agents were accompanied by 4-6 heavily armed marines while checking papers. While a show of force is common in Mexico, this kind of thing has to this point been rarely, if ever, witnessed in a tourist marina, and it was very intimidating."

The conscripts have nothing better to do. They go where they're told. Just fulfilling their obligation. Yea, they wear camo and carry automatic rifles. It's a macho culture and there is always some theater involved.

I want to know who does their laundry. I've never seen such clean, crisp uniforms before. They look brand new every day. edit; not the conscripts, they look a little worn. I meant the officials from SAT or the port captains office. Muy propio.

I was boarded off of Las Islas Tres Marias. One federale, four conscripts, one regular army to supervise the conscripts and a prison screw at the tiller, all alongside in a panga. Then they wanted to board. I'm in a 25 foot boat. Kind of crowded. I had to submit to a gun and drug search back at the prison wharf. Paperwork, DEA dog and handler, people standing around watching cause there's nothing better to do. I spoke spanish and got along even though the federale in charge was wanting some dinner. I just played stupid at that point.

Someone gets intimidated, that's their problem. Harden up.

"One acquaintance of ours was interrogated briefly in rapid fire Spanish, and had to ask for the official to repeat himself, due to the cruiser, while having some knowledge of Spanish, was unable to understand all the legal language. He just really wasn't sure what it was about. How many cruisers could? 10% at best?"

It's their country. It's their language. They get tired of stooping to non spanish speaking visitors who want everything done in english. Just because a person has a credit card doesn't mean the world will come crawling to them.

Learn spanish before you go. It's a respect issue. Most of them speak very passable english but are loathe to let on lest the tourist quit trying and expect the conversation be done at their level.

Payback is a b***h. Their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters don't get much respect when they come to the USA, legal or not. Persons in violation of the law get hung up in the process or locked up and deported. We aren't any more concerned with their welfare and feelings than they demonstrated toward foreign nationals last month during the marina inspections.

Just doing their job señor.

[Dos Gatos]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

"I'm glad I listened because cruiser after cruiser came into Ensenada at the Marina I was at and they told me it was a long ordeal."

A cruiser friend just went thru the process in Ensenada the week after Christmas 2013. Here is the note he sent me:

"We checked in in Ensenada. It was very smooth, took less than 2 hours. Everything is in one building now with window for the different organizations in the same room. You just go from one window to the next. They even have the bank there."

They have never been to Mexico before and were a little worried about the checkin process.

Ensenada is a cakewalk. The first year I went I had all of my paperwork filled out by the marina manager. He drove another couple and myself to the office and we were all done within a hour. Visa, TIP, customs and fishing license. The hardest part was waiting while the bank computer came back online to process the payment receipts. Big whoopee do.

Second time the next year, 30 minutes for a visa and fishing license. They could not have been quicker or polite.

edit: the fee for completing my paperwork was gratis for one nights slip fee at the dock

[bazzer]

Here is a quote from Latitude 38 First timers guide to Mexico

Boat Documents —Every boat must carry current vessel documentation that proves ownership and port of registry. If your boat is not a U.S. documented vessel, you must carry state registration papers — and ideally a bill of sale and/or other proof of ownership.

"If you think you may want to leave your boat in Mexican waters while you leave the country temporarily, you can now apply for a Temporary Import Permit for your boat in advance of leaving home. Apply at this site, www.banjercito.com.mx, 7 to 60 days prior to departure. Legally, you cannot leave your boat in Mexico without it. If you are unsure how long you will cruise Mexican waters (i.e. possibly longer than six months), it's a good idea to take care of this before you head south".

This might explain why so many boats are cruising around Mexico without TIP's based upon this advice. Many cruisers entered Mexico with the Ha Ha and this document.
You need a TIP regardless, even if you are not leaving your boat in MEXICO and are not traveling out of country
Latitude 38 please make note of this error.

[TJ D]

Bazzer,

As I said on the post, I was actually hanging on the LaCruz travelift when the agents came around. That's how I got by, plain dumb luck! We had our TIP long before arrival in Mexico. We arrived there on this latest cruise in 2009. Hope that helps.